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Old 01-02-2007, 01:59 PM   #120
The Guard
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

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Neither is the exact opposite. Also, both Logan and Storm seemed more concerned about him leaving/breaking down.
They should be concerned. They were concered about him all the time in the comics, so that's a good thing to show. But it doesn't mean they've given up on him. I'll give you that a Xavier/Cyclops scene would have been really nice before he left for Alkali Lake.

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I know. I'm a Cyke fan. Doubting himself and breaking only to pick himself up (if only partially) is the story of Scott Summers' life. They should've tackled that right after X1. But noooo, we got him in some sort of denial over how bad things went down at Liberty (arguably the Train Station too - he seemed pissed, but not quite overwhelmed with guilt)...
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I'm not saying Xavier was WRONG to dismiss him as team leader. He just didn't seem that concerned about his recovery.
I don't know. The way Xavier said "He took Jean's death so hard" indicated Xavier cared about what was happening to Scott to me. What do you say about someone in a deep depression? You generally can't do much about it.

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You mean shooting an old man in the back and opening his eyes to blast the hairball after Logan and Jean did all the work?
I mean shooting Magneto and not hitting the machine, or Rogue. Yes. Who cares if he shot Magneto in the back? It was a hell of a shot, and he made the call to take it, and succeeded.

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Funny you said when he could not'. I mean, seriously, how could he have screwed it up at that point?
By missing the shot, and hitting Rogue or the machine, as he seemed to fear he could.

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Originally Posted by The Guard
It's not bad writing. It's called levity, and its used to lighten a serious situation. Every superhero film has these moments. Magneto taking a shot at the X-Men is nothing new.

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My point was that Cyke seemed to get the short end of the stick during said moments. Funny coincidence, really.
Ok. So? There were what, two of them? Maybe three? Logan picking on Scott about anything and everything is something pulled right from the comics. Those scenes served to establish the whole "Cyclops doesn't like Logan" angle in X-MEN. Magneto's barb was seemingly aimed at the X-Men in general. Something else that is from the comics. His early underestimation and dismissal of them.

And it's not like Cyclops didn't get his jabs in. Cyclops did get a "fill 'er up" in during X2, and a "No, you were the one who stabbed Rogue through the chest" in X-MEN.

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Agree that Cyke made the right call. I pointed out in the old thread that it was in character for Cyke to blow up a battlefield to take down his enemies. It's just that we don't get the vibe that anyone took it seriously in the movie. Nor does the writer/directors made an effort to make it so that the audience should have. I mean, christ, a character basically suggests a "we all go down together" scenario and a whole 5 seconds is spent on it. Rotflmao.
Chalk it up to faster pacing in general toward the end of the film. They move right along with "Why do none of you understand what I'm trying to do?" and "I've seen Senator Kelly".

It's just a moment of levity, to show Wolverine for who he is in the filmverse, and that's someone who takes potshots at Cyclops. People read far too much into it. It doesn't mean Cyclops is a weak character, it means Logan is an *******.

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Agree with the 'too much' part. Still believe it can be used as a 'bias for Wolvie' argument, though.
Of course it can, but the sequences are not written to look Cyclops look weak. Those sequences are written to make Wolverine look even more of an *******, and to show that Cyclops isn't, that he controls himself (which is a major part of his character, yes?). Other than the fact that comic book Cyclops would likely have knocked Wolverine's block off if he did some of those things, or fired back at him, I've never understood why people feel that Scott "turning the other cheek" would have reflected badly on movie Cyclops.

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Hey, I'm a Wolvie fan. I pointed out that in other threads that the writers ditched the whole samourai-ish angle of his persona and turned him into an obnoxious a$$$hole.
Well, he did sacrifice himself to save the day...and then again for Rogue. I know it's not textbook Samurai stuff, but it's pretty honorable.

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Once again, it's the timing of said 'potshots' and how they were presented. Comicverse Cyke would've glared at Wolvie or told him to f*** off. Comicverse Wolvie would've most likely just laughed. But nooooo. We get this instead.
And what is the point of that exchange? It becomes an issue with movie Cyclops showing more control than comic book Cyclops does (Although I've seen many moments in the comics where Cyclops does choose the high road and just lets Wolverine jaw at him). Not with movie Cyclops being portrayed as weak or ineffectual. And besides, there came a point where Wolverine GOT to Scott, and he said the whole "You were the one who stabbed Rogue" thing.

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At the expense of Cyke, that's the whole point I'm making.
One, you're acting like Scott suffers from Wolverine's jabs. He doesn't. And Wolverine's jabs don't have any real bearnig to them, he's just being an ass, so Scott's character hardly suffers for those moments.

And yes, most of them came at Cyclops' expense. Good. Because that's their dynamic. Wolverine also made fun of Xavier, at the beginning, and the X-Men's entire cause at one point. And the uniforms. And he told Storm the whole "Who do you think you are? You're a mutant..." thing.

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The whole Scott/Logan dynamic is the comic is that they usually tell each other to f*** off and end up with somewhat of a draw.
Didn't they in the movie? They just didn't use the same words. There's a scene where they fire back and forth and are getting heated, and Xavier says "Settle this", and there's a sort of "draw"

(I'll bet you would have loved the Cyclops/Wolverine fistfight over Jean in Andrew Kevin Walker's script, btw. It's hilarious).

But ALL the X-Men look inept or inexperienced at some point in X-MEN. Even Wolverine. Storm is owned. Jean is owned. Xavier "fails" to stop Magneto at the train station, and is then taken out of action. Twice. And Wolverine is taken out three times in X-MEN alone.

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That's the whole point. We don't ever get the impression that he did a better job than anyone else would've done as leader.
Why not? He shows a desire to keep Xavier's dream alive and protect the X-Men and the students. He flat out LEADS the team during the film. He strategizes. He's successful in his strategies. And he ends up making all the important calls in X-MEN and then being instrumental in saving the day. No one else in X-MEN or X2 is shown to have those kinds of leadership qualities (except for Magneto).

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We Cyke fans aren't asking for him to save the day and beat the f*** out of every villain. It's just that whether he's a better field leader than ANY other character in the movieverse is open to debate. Like, A LOT.
But we don't don't see Wolverine with half the leadership skills Scott has. Ditto Storm. Ditto Jean. Ditto anyone. Only Scott possesses them in X-MEN, and Magneto shows some in X2 and X3.

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Originally Posted by The Guard
In the same scene, Storm gets "owned" by Sabertooth for the most part. And Wolverine gets "owned" by Magneto. So does Rogue. It's not like the writers only shat on Cyclops at the train station.

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Cyke's job was to WATCH STORM'S BACK and essentially be the lookout boy. He failed. Badly.
Cyclops job was to find Rogue, the same as Storm. He only "fails" because Toad knocks off his visor. Before that, he's pushing through the crowd, about to deliver a whupping to Sabertooth. So he fails. Big deal. EVERYONE failed in that movie.

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Also, Xavier at least gets to TRY to stop Mags. He fails because Mags threatened to kill people. Not because he didn't see some creep crawling up a wall. Quite the difference.
The reason Cyclops didn't see Toad crawling up the wall was because he was endeavoring to help Storm. Cyclops isn't a god. He doesn't have supersenses. He just has optic blasts.

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Also, Storm does get rid of Sabertooth. And Wolvie, well, he CAN'T win against Mags. EVER. How the hell can it be used as a comparison? I don't like it, but Cyke got shafted the worst in said scene.
If Wolverine can't win against Magneto, then how has he before? How the hell can you use Cyclops getting his visor ***** slapped from him as a comparison? How is he supposed to win then, either?

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Yeah, but he wouldn't have to aid her had the team not been divided (Logan's fault, but Cyke didn't manage to get him to stay put) and taken down so easily. Not quite his fault once again, but had they not gotten gotten caught off guard, it would've been to his credit.
Why? Logan would have been able to have handled Toad? Cyclops, Storm and Jean couldn't, and Logan couldn't handle Mystique (Who didn't HAVE a twenty foot tongue). Why would Logan have been able to handle Toad had he been there?

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Exactly WHAT does she do? See your own comment from above, too.
-Acts as the mutants' voice in the Senate.
-Is a doctor, presumably helps Xavier and Logan recover.
-Seems to helps Xavier take control of Sabertooth and Toad at the train station.
-Finds Rogue and helps decode Magneto's plans by using Cerebro, something she thought she couldn't do.
-Helps save the day by steadying Logan at Liberty Island.
-Is instrumental in helping Cyclops dispatch Sabertooth.

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Sigh. I've already said that taking down 4 opponents in like 20 seconds was roxor. It's just that the way he goes down seemed rather weak compared to his comic counterpart, not to mention THEY SHOT A LONGER VERSION OF SAID SCENE. I'm not saying Cyke should've WON the fight. Christ, even in the novel he at least TRIED to fight DeathStrike hand-to-hand. I was complaining about the directorial choices of said scene.
Didn't sound like it. Sounded like you were upset he went down with one hit.

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So we agree he's basically a plot tool. I don't like it. You don't mind. Fair enough.
Yes, he's a plot device to an extent, but so is Xavier in X2. Cyclops does have some great emotional stuff with Jean and Wolverine that pays off very nicely.

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Sure, I'll give you that one. Could've been anyone else, in that room. But it's still at his expense.
Then it's at his expense. So what? Everytime Cyclops gets beaten or captured in the comics it's at his expense too. Sort like how every time Logan gets his ass kicked in the movies it's at his expense. Why does this matter? I mean, like you said, Cyclops is a character who routinely gets shat on, even in the comics.

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Really? Somehow I think Stryker would give him a specific order to hold back and not blast the dam to pieces. That first blast aimed at Mags and Mystique wasn't much, really. A semi-hole in a wall? And the way he knocked over that jeep... At full or near full-power, he would've done much more serious damage. Like, ya know, cleaving it in two for starters.
Cyclops doesn't appear to be QUITE as powerful as he is in the comics in the films when he unloads. I'm talking about where he opens up on Jean. He's not holding back a whole lot there, and the movie makes that pretty clear.

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You forgot Sabertooth did so twice in X1, actually.
Yes I did. Thanks for reminding me.

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Still, my point was that he always gets taken down first and FAST.
Like Xavier. That's because Cyclops is their leader. Magneto and Stryker seem to use that as a strategy. Take Cyclops out of the equation. It's a good battle tactic. He gets taken down fast because he's a human. And he does take some serious punishment for the average human. Look what Toad does to him in X-MEN.

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I know it has to do with writing and how easily the good guys would win if he didn't get taken down everytime. Still, it annoys.
Thing is...before he got taken down by Deathstrike, he took her down. We saw him kick ass right before that. And in X-MEN, after he gets taken down, he comes back blasting, and takes out Sabertooth and Magneto, respectively.

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Yeah. I still think they didn't quite get it right. Somewhat, I'll concede. Still
not right IMO.
Then they didn't get it quite right. I'm not sure a grown man whaling on a grown man for a few cheap insults would have been very believeable. Nor do I want to see a character who is all about "control" losing control over such pathetic attempts to bait him. It still works in the context of their dynamic.

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The whole point was that it's somewhat unfair that he doesn't get to.
Yes it is. Although we do see the man kick some ass, and do some damage with his optic blasts. The movies didn't leave me going "I wish we'd seen what Cyclops can do".

Originally Posted by The Guard
I don't think it's that he doesn't get screwed over. He does, in terms of screentime and character fate and so forth.

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Thank you for at least admitting that.
Sure. I don't think there's much argument there.

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In the sense that he is what we got in the first ten issues of the comicbook?
In the sense that, other than depth, he feels and acts pretty much like the Cyclops of the comic books would if he were adapted to the real world.

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Sure. But then again, most characters were little more than cardboard cut-outs back then.
I disagree.

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As was said above, they just didn't spend much (aka more than 2 minutes) dealing with the whole self-doubting angsty angle of the persona, which, IMO, far outweighs the boyscout angle.
Well, there's the "I'll take care of them" and there's the "Could we have done more" scene. Not sure how long those last. You can kind of add the "grieving" scenes to that if you think about it. At least as far as angst goes.

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IMO, what they showed us in X1 was "he did OK, considering". The point is that comicverse Cyke he's a GOOD leader. Not PERFECT, but better than f****n OK. And whether we got that in X1 is pretty much open to debate.
I think you kind of have to add "considering" anytime the X-Men face down Magneto and the Brotherhood. I don't think it's open to debate at all.

In X-MEN, Cyclops...

Figures out Magneto's plan.
Strategizes their mission and approach.
Flies the X-Jet in
Leads them to Liberty, identifies the location of Magneto's machine
Saves Jean's life and displays quite a bit of skill when Toad slimes her.
Comes up with a plan to stop Magneto when they're captured
Comes up with another plan to stop Magneto later on.
Stops Magneto.

And that's just in the end of the movie. He's shown to be pretty damn competent when he and Storm rescue Wolverine and Rogue. That's a lot better than "ok" in my book.

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Fair enough. Still, he doesn't have much to be proud of.
Except for...all the stuff he did as an X-Man, saving Jean and half of New York in X-MEN.

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Comicverse Cyke would keep count and lose sleep over it. He'd blame himself for the professor's capture and Jean's death and go completely insane.
And that's comic book Cyclops.

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I KNOW that. That's what I expected/hoped for X3.

Hell, that should've been his story arc ever since Liberty Island. See the 'losing sleep over it' comment.

That's why I don't think they got Cyke right. They just so happen to overlook something which you refered to (and rightfully so) as a COMPLETE OBSESSION.

I'm sorry, that's just too much of an omission for me.
I can see where you're coming from, and yes, they omitted this aspect of Cyclops...but it doesn't really hurt how Scott appears in the movieverse. If anything, he seems a bit more stable, which may be a good thing, since, like you said, he's Logan's foil.

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It's just that movieverse Cyke essentially became Logan's foil and that one doesn't really have to look deep to find rather solid evidence indicating just that.
Ok. Foils exist. Storm serves as a foil for Wolverine at times. Doesn't make the existing characterization of a foil bad. It means that Cyclops wasn't the main character

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