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Old 08-22-2008, 08:18 PM   #33
CFE
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
Yeah, that makes absolutely no sense.
Bruce is a mortal and yet he has accomplished and triumphed just as much as Superman and as a result he's proven himself. Also, Batman clearly doesn't buy into the concept of "Superman" like nearly every other character in the DCU does.

While other characters see Superman as an ideal to aspire to or emulate, or they see him as an inspirational messiah to continuously praise...Batman sees him as an equal and doesn't think any higher of him then he should have to.

How could that not make any sense? I think you just don't want it to make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
Clark? He is just a disguise. What hurts him about beliefs and ideologies? Superman is an absolute.
Superman, Clark, Kal-El ... Whatever you want to call him, he's the same guy.

And Paul Levitz said this in a documentary and I very much side with it:

Clark sees the world as a place that can be made better, as opposed to Bruce who believes that the world is s**t and it's about surviving it rather than improving it, since improving it is close to impossible.

Since Batman's ideology is more realistic (even in reality), this makes Superman look quite foolish and by extension very vulnerable IMO.

Now I'm not saying that Superman isn't noble for feeling this way...but given the actions of humanity, it's rather naive...and that naivety usually leads Supes into trouble more often then not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
Just partly.

The "dueling lovers" from Batman / Superman is just annoying and pretentious.
"Dueling Lovers" ??? No.
"Reluctant yet Understanding Allies" ??? Yes.

What's annoying about that? And even more so, what's pretentious about it? I mean if you know what 'pretentious' means, then how do you figure Loeb's take on Cla...I mean Superman...and Batman's relationship is such a thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
Yeah Superman the establishment puppet.
In Frank's take, yeah...isn't that what we're talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy C. View Post

Contrast Clark's upbringing with Bruce, who spent his childhood spoiled rotten in one of the richest families in the world, then ran off for years on a quest that none of us could ever have enough money to afford. He then got to come back and take over a billion-dollar corporation that he had no hand in creating, and use his family's and his company's fortunes to make a bunch of weapons and gadgets that make him unbeatable. He never loses a major fight (especially not if he has "prep time") and always gets to be the guy who's right when the heroes start arguing. In that sense, he's far more invulnerable, and thus a more shallow character, than Superman ever was.
I have a feeling that had he been born dirt poor and his parents were still taken from him by a mindless act of voilence, it wouldn't change Bruce's desire to avenge them and make the choice to preserve justice.

He still would've become a vigilante crime fighter.

His wealth is nothing more than a tool and an advantage to his crusade. With wealth, he still becomes a vigilante crime fighter...but he's able to acquire the technology and safety gear in order to keep himself alive and do his job well.

As for being spoiled, I don't think so.

I seem to recall (not sure where) of a short flashback story:

Instead of doing so with an abundance of gifts and a lavish dinner, Thomas and Martha decided to celebrate Christmas by taking Bruce to work in a Soup Kitchen...teaching him the values of helping those who couldn't help themselves.

Even in "Batman Begins" it's clear that the Waynes don't spoil their son. Same goes for pretty much all other Batman material.

---

CFE

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