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Old 06-06-2010, 03:47 AM   #27
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Default Re: Who was the best robin?

Originally Posted by Robin91939 View Post
I know the stories. I know the history, I've seen the episode.

It still doesn't change the fact that she has appeared in ONE out of continuity story. No matter how great it was, it doesn't compare to the YEARS of continuous publication and stories that Dick, Jason, and Tim have had....sorry.

No matter how likable, spunky or fresh her character was, her impact in the comic book world, and in Batman's world, just doesn't compare to these characters who have survived DECADES in HUNDREDS of stories.

This is a matter of quality and influence over quantity and imitations. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns has been in continuous publication since 1986. That's YEARS, DECADES of reprints of that ONE story. The impact and influence of that ONE story on the comic book world, and on the Batman franchise and superhero franchises, overshadows hundreds of other Batman stories and influences many as well.

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns revolutionized comics. It redesigned the graphic novel in comic book size with each issue being 48-pages, with square binding, high quality paper stock, and watercolor painting. Dark Knight Returns introduced the Dark Knight format, later called the "prestige format". It was also the first to be collected into a TPB. It brought Batman back closer to the way Bill Finger and Bob Kane created him as a fierce vigilante wanted by the law. It even brought back the short bat-eared cowl and bat-emblem without the yellow oval, it went back to the black and grey look of the costume without all the blue. The heavy use of gadgets and bat-vehicles which had been toned way down in the Bronze Age. The scope of it is huge. Miller delves deeply into each character’s soul and allows the reader a unfiltered look into their thoughts. It makes use of an internal monologue replacing the narrator in the story so the character's thoughts and feelings are counterpoint to his actions. Characters cussing in a Batman comic. A female Robin. The utility belt with functional pockets instead of those little tubes.

It's extremely influential. The votes to kill Jason Todd in A Death in the Family were obviously influenced by Jason Todd being dead in Dark Knight Returns. Frank Miller changed the way Alan Moore looked at Batman and the Joker, influencing Alan Moore to create the Killing Joke. Grant Morrison said that Arkham Asylum "was intended as a critique of the '80s interpretation of Batman as violent, driven and borderline psychopathic." That '80s interpretation of Batman comes from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns. So if there was no Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, there would be no Batman: Arkham Asylum. Batman: The Killing Joke, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Green Arrow: The Long Bow Hunters, Batman: The Cult, etc., wouldn't have existed. If Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One were never released the state of Batman comics would be stuck in the Bronze Age. Jeph Loeb is an obvious Miller imitator. Long Halloween/Dark Victory are obviously influenced by Miller's Batman: Year One with Miller's creation The Roman and his mafia family, Harvey Dent prior to becoming Two-Face, Captain James Gordon, Selina Kyle showing up. And in Hush -- a trenchcoat-wearing face-bandaged Harvey Dent, a kiss with Selena, a fight with Superman, almost-killing of the Joker . . . sound familiar? That's Miller's Dark Knight Returns. Dark Knight Returns introduced the most mainstream superheroes (Superman and Batman previously viewed by the general public as the most wholesome superheroes in Super Friends, the Batman TV show starring Adam West and the Superman movies starring Christopher Reeve) in a story with very adult themes, situations and language.

In Batman Begins when he fell into the hole when he was a kid and was frightened by the bats: That comes from Dark Knight Returns, which Denny O'Neil was influenced by to write The Man Who Falls story. The Batmobile as a tank concept originates in Dark Knight Returns. Batman using a spear gun originates in Dark Knight Returns.
Batman wearing body armor in the movies was also influenced by Dark Knight Returns.
Sam Hamm said in Comics Interview Super Special, "The first issue of Dark Knight had just come out when I was first discussing the screenplay. I went into the comics store to see what was going on in the field then, and I was pretty staggered! There was every reason to get excited. Dark Knight in the tone. Nightmarish Gotham City. There are a couple of literal swipes from Dark Knight -- the notion that he wears the emblem on his chest as a target, essentially, because he's trying to draw fire away from his head. There are a couple of other bits like that."
Danny Elfman said on the Batman special features DVD, "After I finished Beetlejuice I got a call from Tim saying, 'I'm doing this thing you might be interested in it.' He sent me the Dark Knight comics. That was much more up my alley than what I had known of the original Batman comics as a kid."
Micheal Keaton said on an A&E channel documentary, "Tim Burton was really into the Frank Miller thing and knew it and understood it far more than I did. He had the look of it and the tone of it."
Tim Burton said in the book Burton on Burton "The success of those graphic novels made our ideas more acceptable."

Dark Knight Returns influenced Jim Lee to join the comic book world.

"Back when I was in college from 1982 to 1986, I grew bored and disenchanted with comics, barely perusing my subscriptions when I went home for various holiday breaks. Frank Miller changed all that in 1986 when the Dark Knight Returns blew my mind and lit up my retinas.

I haven't been the same since.

My passion for creating comics comes from this one book and I've embarrassed Frank countless times by repeating this exact same story to him. Being fortunate enough to have as passionate fans, I know how it feels to be told similar tales so I hold back and try and act normal around him now so I don't freak him out. But he is ****ing Frank Miller, man."

Jubilee and the Stephenie Brown Robin and Hit-Girl were obviously influenced by Carrie Kelley.

In 2007 Geoff Johns even planned to have Carrie Kelley herself in the Booster Gold series, "This book is time and space, and space includes the Multiverse," explained Johns, Earth-31 is the Dark Knight Universe, and Dan Jurgens featured her on the original version of the cover.

But it was changed and she didn't appear in the series because Frank Miller didn't approve. Frank Miller said "I would rather they didn't because I love the character, so I feel very territorial about her."

Alex Ross had an obvious homage to Carrie Kelley in Kingdom Come.

Dark Knight Returns certainly influenced Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come is the Dark Knight Returns for Superman - Superman retiring and then returning to fighting crime years later older with grey hair and crime has gotten really bad and Superman influencing others to fight crime and trying to teach the younger generation, just as the Dark Knight Returns Batman had with the Sons of Batman gang.

Even Adam Hughes has done a tribute to Carrie Kelley.

Carrie Kelley and the Dark Knight Returns story which she appears in have certainly had a huge impact and influence. She's the most influential Robin since Dick Grayson started the side-kick craze in 1940.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 06-07-2010 at 04:48 AM.
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