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Old 08-17-2011, 03:06 PM   #57
November Rain
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Default Re: So let's talk about Mask of the Phantasm...

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Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
I think no one would want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.
there are plenty of things 8 year olds would like to be. infact i've wanted to be a pilot since i was five. 8 is not that young to have a career goal.

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That is PRECISELY why Batman is such a remarkable character. That's why no other orphan in the world makes such a decision. Because no one else can do what he does.
it doesn't make him remarkable, it just kinda makes him a lil damaged and odd.

If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.


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Yeah, that's how the average man would feel and do. Forget everything before it starts because of a girl. Batman should be above that. At least when he is not Batman yet.
wait, here you are judging bruce's qualities as batman before he even becomes batman.

but in the beginning he is just bruce and is not and has had no experience of being batman.

and you forget, it's not because of a girl, he specifically states 'he didn't count on being happy'. to be fair, whether it was andrea or heroin, it wouldn't matter as such but the result would remain. but bruce was ultimately saved from himself before he falls too far.


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Yeah. Determination is two dimensional.
sure, on its own it is. anything on its own is.

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That loving a girl is not part of the Batman origin equation. Revenge, justice, hatred, frustration. But not a girl.
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First of all, if you think the bat-suit is irrelevant then maybe you'd like some average vigilante in a coat but with hate in his glance. The suit is the core of the Batman character. It is what Bruce built in order to scare criminals. Countles stories have been told about how Bruce tried to fight crime wiothout the suit and failed miserably.

And Batman suit is comparable to Black Canary's or Superman's? I mean, shiny colors vs black, mask vs no mask and a long etc.

Now, if you tell me that Bruce didn't have fear in his yees before a girl broke his heart, then why bother in including the Waynes' killing? Let's make this superhero that scares people because he has a broken heart. According to you, a girl walking out of someone is what really gives you what's needed to scare people.
now you really walked into this one

watch the dcau episode where the justice league see their future coutnerparts, and batman meets bruce wayne of the future.

the old bruce manages without any form of costume to scare the life outta the joker goon, no costume necessary, heck the younger one is quite surprised by the methods.

that's all eyes. The suit builds around this but it's eyes first and foremost. put another character in it and it won't have the same affect.

and i think you are oversimplyfing andreas role in this film, she's not just a girl, she is the only thing that's ever made him happy since his parents died. she was effectively his crutch out of dispair and when he was just bout to climb out of it, she pushed him right to those depth again, closed the door and threw away the key

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Sure, let's make movies about Bruce Wayne and not Batman. Why having a character with cool suits and gadgets and a huge internal conflict when you can have a billionaire with love's sorrows?
why isn't there room to do both, again, why are you boxing him up into a simple character.

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What's wrong with it?

What's wrong is that if anything would stop Bruce of becoming Batman should be more than just a girl.
well clearly from the story, obviously not.

and you keep saying batman, he's not batman, he's just bruce wayne at this time. nothing can stop batman being batman, bur andrea could stop bruce (actually she had a chance to stop batman as well but in that case they woudl be saving each other).

look at the stupid reason batman stopped in the first place, his health collasped and he was forced to use a gun. hardly a reason to let innocent victims be taken down by thugs for the next 20 years.

again, somewhat childish.

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He rationalizes it into this Batman figure who will bring justice to this world.
how can he rationalise it into a figure that doesn't exist yet? he didn't even KNOW he needed an alternate persona till his first attempts with the muggers went poorly.


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The birth of Batman is about grieving his parents. That's what burnt him, not some girl that left him.
the story isnt about the birth of batman, it's about the death of bruce wayne. there's a complete difference and i'm not sure you are getting the subtleties of it.

in a sense, the andrea beaumont escapade was bruce's last touch with humanity and the story is how he lost touch with everything


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Sorry, but Catwoman is the one. She's the one that mirrors him with her double life, mask and intyernal conflict. This Andrea - before she became the Phantasm which is when Bruce decided that she was hot enough to quit his mision before starting it - is not the troubled soul Catwoman is.

Catwoman is everything good and bad Bruce is as Batman.
selina kyle never loved bruce, she loved batman, therefore that relationship could never go anywhere.

oh this is just insane. she took a far darker path than bruce did, she did the training, got the phantasm gear and systematically killed everyone involved with her father's murder while abroad for a considerable amount of time. Hers is even worse, bruce's parents were at the wrong place at the wrong time, andrea's dad was assassinated by his old colleagues in cold blood after being on the run. if that doesn't mess someone up, i don't know what would.

its alright to not want to like andrea but you can't underplay her role in bruce's story. It's huge.

and that's not even considering his actions with her, lead to her sparing terry's father's life and leads to bruce's eventual relationship with his son. So in a sense, bruce did save her in the end since she wasn't willing to see another child go through what he did.

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Last edited by November Rain; 08-17-2011 at 03:09 PM.
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