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Old 08-19-2011, 02:33 PM   #67
El Payaso
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Default Re: So let's talk about Mask of the Phantasm...

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
there are plenty of things 8 year olds would like to be. infact i've wanted to be a pilot since i was five. 8 is not that young to have a career goal.
Mh, it was you who said ďHe makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.Ē

Then I agreed with you that few people can decide something at 8 and keep it without doubting about it. Now you disagree with me. Vicariously youíre disagreeing with yourself.

So, what is it? Regular people doubt or not about decision made at 8.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
it doesn't make him remarkable, it just kinda makes him a lil damaged and odd.
Determination = damage, oddity.

According to you.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.
Which is precisely my point: you canít.

Regular guys would forget everything because of a hot girl before starting. Bruce wouldnít.

AFTER he is Batman and he thinks thereís no point in keep being it, thatís a different song.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
wait, here you are judging bruce's qualities as batman before he even becomes batman.

but in the beginning he is just bruce and is not and has had no experience of being batman.
But if traditionally Bruce decided to avenge his parentsí mirder, and he still want that at 20-something, that describes a part of Bruce Batman still has.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
and you forget, it's not because of a girl, he specifically states 'he didn't count on being happy'. to be fair, whether it was andrea or heroin, it wouldn't matter as such but the result would remain. but bruce was ultimately saved from himself before he falls too far.
The result must always be the same: he becomes Batman.

Now what makes him doubt before becoming Batman is what matters here. And a girl sounds cliched (Ďlove can change peopleí) and insufficient (just a girl? Really. That close he was of not becoming Batman because of a girl?).

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
sure, on its own it is. anything on its own is.
No. Determination is never on its own. Nothing ever is. Everything is within a context, linked to a number of other factors.

Only treatments are 2 dimensional.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
now you really walked into this one

watch the dcau episode where the justice league see their future coutnerparts, and batman meets bruce wayne of the future.

the old bruce manages without any form of costume to scare the life outta the joker goon, no costume necessary, heck the younger one is quite surprised by the methods.

that's all eyes. The suit builds around this but it's eyes first and foremost. put another character in it and it won't have the same affect.
So, I should learn from the very take on the character that I am precisely critizising?

As I said, if your idea of Batman is a billionaire without a bat-suit, knock yourself out.

Some of us think a Batman story must include Batman. There is a bat before the man. And for a good reason.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
and i think you are oversimplyfing andreas role in this film, she's not just a girl, she is the only thing that's ever made him happy since his parents died. she was effectively his crutch out of dispair and when he was just bout to climb out of it, she pushed him right to those depth again, closed the door and threw away the key
Or Bruce could have been a father and find happiness in parenthood. Or he could have surrender to a good self-destructive pleasurable life and find happžness in that.

Options are many.

But thatís not a part of what Batman origin story is. And a girl in not either.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
why isn't there room to do both, again, why are you boxing him up into a simple character.
On the contrary. I say Batman includes both Bruce Wayne and Batman.

You say Batmanís suit is irrelevant. Bruce just need some angry eyes and thatís it.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
well clearly from the story, obviously not.
Which is why Iím critizising such story. Remember?

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
and you keep saying batman, he's not batman, he's just bruce wayne at this time. nothing can stop batman being batman, bur andrea could stop bruce (actually she had a chance to stop batman as well but in that case they woudl be saving each other).
Batmanís determination and obsession didnít start with his mask. It started with Bruce Wayne. The mask was just the culmination of a long process.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
look at the stupid reason batman stopped in the first place, his health collasped and he was forced to use a gun. hardly a reason to let innocent victims be taken down by thugs for the next 20 years.

again, somewhat childish.
Iím not sure where did this happen?

But to doubt of what youíve been sure of because of a girl is, again, quite cliched. Andrea was just placed there in an attempt to re-tell Batmanís origin. But she was not needed. Batman doesnít start because Bruce couldnít get married. His anger doesnít come from a failed romance.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
how can he rationalise it into a figure that doesn't exist yet? he didn't even KNOW he needed an alternate persona till his first attempts with the muggers went poorly.
He rationalizes it in the process of becoming Batman also. He kept drawing sketches about what he needed.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
the story isnt about the birth of batman, it's about the death of bruce wayne. there's a complete difference and i'm not sure you are getting the subtleties of it.
Iím certainly not getting the subtleties of your own personal poetric re-phrasing of what the film is. Batman is born in the movie, therefore is a Batman origin movie.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
in a sense, the andrea beaumont escapade was bruce's last touch with humanity and the story is how he lost touch with everything
Yeah, that last touch with humanity could be portrayed in many different ways. Iím saying a girl is one of the most cliched ones they could have chosen. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with becoming Batman. Becoming Batman has never included a broken heart.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
selina kyle never loved bruce, she loved batman, therefore that relationship could never go anywhere.
Which does not contradict anything I said.

A good love interest is not the one that goes somewhere necessarily. Best love interests, from Romeo and Juliet, and this improvised Andrea Beaumont thing, donít go anywhere.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
oh this is just insane. she took a far darker path than bruce did, she did the training, got the phantasm gear and systematically killed everyone involved with her father's murder while abroad for a considerable amount of time. Hers is even worse, bruce's parents were at the wrong place at the wrong time, andrea's dad was assassinated by his old colleagues in cold blood after being on the run. if that doesn't mess someone up, i don't know what would.
Catwoman is all that too.

But naturally she IS part of Batman history and nobody thought of having her as some reason for Bruce NOT wanting to become Batman in the first place.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
its alright to not want to like andrea but you can't underplay her role in bruce's story. It's huge.
I donít. History does. She has never become part of the official Bruceís story. Andrea was an element other people rapidly forgot about.

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
and that's not even considering his actions with her, lead to her sparing terry's father's life and leads to bruce's eventual relationship with his son. So in a sense, bruce did save her in the end since she wasn't willing to see another child go through what he did.
Well, thatís an alternmative future. Also non defining of Batmanís origin.



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