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Old 12-03-2011, 05:27 AM   #58
El Payaso
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Default Re: Batman Begins Best Origin Movie ever ?

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
I must have missed that part ...
Then check it. Because if you were able to spot Batman in those messy choppy-edited fights then you couldn't have possibly missed that part.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
The only things remotely negative about Batman Begins is that a) it's 3rd act was rushed, and pigeon holed into the stupid genre limitations of comic book movies (TDK, shot that to hell though) b) the sprinkled in one liners, and cheesy dialogue from time to time: "nice coat", "excuse me", "take a seat ... have a drink" ... those are the worst of them c) Katie Holmes acting and d) the excessive use of the word fear
e) The bad editing of the fights, which Nolan corrected in TDK.
f) Scarecrow, an underused character that took the whole movie to fully become the comic book villiain, with a grandiose speech about how he is fear itself, just to be tazed by a young woman and leave the movie screaming like a school girl.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
Easily in the elite echelon of comic book movies. Whether you rate it as best, or among the best. You would be hard pressed to find someone that would deny, in their right minds, being one of the best of the genre. It's better scripted, more intelligent and has more pathos than any of the previous Batman movies ... and doesn't have one performance that screams HAMMY comic book shtick the way Returns, Forever, and Robin showed us. Katie Holmes isn't very good, but she's at the very least servicable in the film.
Some of BB's dialogue is pretty subpar, and I'm not even talking about the subpar one-liners.

Again, the monorail scene. Terribly bad written.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
I personally would have kept it more intimate, maybe not have had Scarecrow ... maybe not even Ra's Al Ghul. But it needed to be an action movie too, so I see why they were in there. My idea of a Batman franchise would've seen the first movie be totally just about Batman taking on what he was originally intended to ... the mob, corrupt policemen, street level crime. And the sequels, after Batman's appearance in Gotham would deal with the emergence of the "freaks" and new level villains.

I mean, not that it dilutes the Joker in TDK, but having Scarecrow in BEGINS kind of defeats the purpose of Joker being the first evil spawned ispiration of the Batman. He's not a total freak in the film, he's twisted, but his motivations on monetary in nature ... but him being there I think could've been saved for a sequel.
I agree with you in that even when Batman fighting corruption would have been enough, it needed the more 'action movie' approach.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
But all in all, BEGINS is easily there with Iron Man (the narrative structure alone for Iron Man owes a lot to BEGINS what with the origin being told through flash backs, and it was cited by the director as being a MAJOR influence on his film)
What if Iron Man was influenced by BB's structure? Good, BB's structure was great. That alone doesn't make BB immediately as good as Iron Man. IM was set as a fun action movie and achieved its full potential. BB was set as a serious realistic-toned movie and it failed in many ways. IM mastered the comedy parts (mainly thanks to RDJ whereas BB didn't even need comedy in it, had too much unnecessary comedy, and failed almost in every single attempt).

My point is, it's very hard to compare both movies. I myself prefer the BB approach for a superhero movie, but Iron Man achieved a better product. The action was much better - yes, you could actually see Iron Man in the movie - the love interest was much better, the comedy was much better.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
Superman:TM
STM was the first of its kind and it succeeded. Its groundbreaking-ness can't be compared to that from BB, which many times felt just the average action movie.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
Sam Raimi's whiny Spider-Man movie (featuring random Power Ranger villain) ... the performances from the actors alone in BEGINS spank the original Spider-Man movie.
I'd say everything in BB spank Spiderman 1. Except the comedy, both fail there.

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Originally Posted by SmellTheWeird View Post
As I said, BEGINS is a very, very good movie. Like it's director, just has a few flaws, and was right on the CUSP of true greatness. Nolan redeemed himself and capitalized FULLY on his next Batman movie, so all is forgiven.
Well, you said it. Nolan redeemed himself. That alone implies he needed redemption after BB.

And what a redemption we had. TDK was truly groundbreaking. A masterpiece of the genre, and it you put it next to STM, I can fully agree for it has deserved that position.




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Originally Posted by The Morningstar View Post
I think Begins is better than TDK, so no.

And how could you miss Batmans smug, smarmy "I don't have to save you!" He may aswell have been laughing as he jumped out of the train.

Batman 89 has pathos and underlying themes. But it doesn't have characters talking about them. You don't have characters start talking about how Joker is using peoples vanity against them with the make up plot. Or using the poors desperation for money against them at the parade. It's left for us in the audience to figure thoses things out. Batman 89 was basically a satire of the culture in the 80s/90s. But isn't spoon fed to us with dialogue. Unlike Begins with "fear" being mentioned all the ****ing time. Or in TDK where characters actually break the fourth wall to explain the movies themes to the idiots in the audience.
I love TDK. If the characters were preachy like that I haven't noticed in the many times I've seen the mvoie. But you're right about B89. What I like the most about Burton's movies is that he'd refuse to spoonfeeding you with anything.

He shows and doesn't tell.


Last edited by El Payaso; 12-03-2011 at 05:32 AM.
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