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Old 12-15-2011, 09:36 PM   #50
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Originally Posted by That person View Post
Obviously, both Byrne and Waid took some inspiration from the Golden Age, which is fine, because the Golden Age was awesome. Comparing the two, I'd say Birthright stayed truer to the spirit of the character and was a generally-better told story.
Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright was definitely not truer to the Golden Age Jerry Siegel Superman than John Byrne's The Man of Steel. The Jerry Siegel Golden Age foster father Kent was elderly, described as kind, loving and guided Clark with the foster parents advice to Clark to use his powers to assist humanity. Mark Waid's Jonathan Kent in Superman: Birthright is far younger and blonde (obviously to resemble actor John Schneider on the Smallville TV show), is cold, distant, barely spoke to Clark rather than encouraging and guiding Clark into using his powers to assist humanity. The Jerry Siegel Golden Age Luthor didn't meet Superman until he was an adult and hated him because he powers were a threat. Mark Waid's Lex Luthor in Superman: Birthright is from Smallville and met Clark as a boy and blames Clark for his baldness. Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright was actually closer to the Silver Age, as well as the Smallville TV show, with the House of El on Krypton from the Silver Age, Lex coming from Smallville and having been friends with Clark as in the Silver Age and as on the Smallville TV show, and blaming Clark for his baldness as in the Silver Age, a younger Jonathan and Martha Kent as in the Smallville TV show, etc.

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide View Post
I'm going to start this post by saying that I grew up on Lois and Clark as a kid, and because of that I used to defend Byrne's stories.

But it hasn't taken a lot for me to kind of question their quality, and the intentions behind the entire Byrne reboot, which basically stripped the character of certain qualities and 'marvelised' him in a failed attempt to increase popularity.
That snide "Marvelized" remark came about because John Byrne was coming over from Marvel to DC to revamp Superman. He didn't Marvelize the character. He didn't turn Superman into Spider-Man, or Wolverine, or Hulk, or Daredevil, or Thor, and he didn't turn Luthor into Kingpin either. Kingpin is a gigantic mobster and martial artist and carries a laser cane. Kingpin is incredibly strong, most of his body mass is actually muscle that has been built to extraordinary size, much like a sumo wrestler and is an extraordinarily skilled martial artist, especially in sumo wrestling and can beat his foes Spider-Man and Daredevil physically, Byrne's Luthor was much thinner and couldn't do any of the things Kingpin can and wouldn't because he thinks that's beneath him. Instead he matches his brains against Superman's strength by creating something to destroy Superman. Kingpin was always a minor player to Spider-Man, just a weird mobster, while Byrne's Luthor was Superman's arch enemy.
And, actually, Superman's sales were declining before 1986, which is why DC wanted to revamp Superman in 1985 and hired John Byrne in the first place. And John Byrne actually boosted Superman's sales enormously in 1986 with The Man of Steel and John Byrne's run on the ongoing Superman titles. If Superman's sales were declining then DC certainly wouldn't have given Superman a fourth ongoing series in 1991 with Superman: The Man of Steel. The Death of Superman arc also boosted Superman's sales even further in 1992. Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was a successful television series from 1993 to 1997, which was definitely influenced by John Byrne's run. Superman: The Wedding Album was also an enormous success in 1996. Superman has definitely had success since 1986.

Also, Birthright is my favourite origin story, bar the young Lex stuff.

I love how Clark is characterised, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.
The Man of Steel is my favorite Superman origin story, including the Luthor stuff in it. I love how Clark is characterized, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out with his kind foster parents, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.

Are you suggesting that after Golden Age, Superman's stories and direction became suddenly no longer up to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster?
Of course, because unfortunately that is what happened. By 1941 most Superman art was by Jack Burnley, Wayne Boring, Leo Nowak and Paul Cassidy, instead of Joe Shuster himself. Jerry Siegel also left DC by 1945, and Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster sued DC in 1946 over the rights of Superman. Don Cameron, Whitney Ellsworth, Bill Finger and Alvin Schwartz replaced Jerry Siegel. Mort Weisinger became the supervising editor in charge of the Superman books in 1948. Weisinger told the writers what kind of stories they had to write. Weisinger would come up with plots by asking young children what they think should happen in the next issue. Weisinger had Superman's origin majorly revamped with him having learned he was from Krypton while still a boy in Superman #132 (1959) "Superman's Other Life" and having battled crime as a youngster as Superboy, as recalled in Superman #72 (1951) "The Private Life of Perry White." In addition, it was stated that "Because of his super-memory, Superman can recall all the incidences of his childhood!" in Action Comics #288 (1962) "The Man Who Exposed Superman," and others. The complete revamp of Superman's origin was shown in Superman #146 (1961) "The Story of Superman's Life." Weisinger was also friendly with the boss, Jack Liebowitz, which further forced the writers into listening to what Mort told them to write. When financially troubled Jerry Siegel returned to DC in 1959 to 1966, Curt Swan recalled that Mort Weisinger bullied Siegel, simply because Siegel's circumstances made him unlikely to walk off for such mistreatment. Jerry Siegel wrote in a letter to Joe Shuster, "I get a lot of scorn, belittlement and hot-tempered abuse from Weisinger, who says my plotting and scripting is inferior. This is really making a buck the hard way, but it's the only way I can support my family." Curt Swan said that dealing with Weisinger caused himself recurrent headaches and temporarily drove him out of the business altogether in 1951. Otto Binder retired from the business in 1958, mainly to escape from dealing with Weisinger. Alvin Schwartz said, "Like many others, I found Weisinger difficult to deal with. But I endured until one day he insisted that I write a story in which Superman finds some way to transfer his powers to Lois Lane. … I thought such a plot was out of character." Alvin Schwartz wrote the story "The Superwoman of Metropolis" in Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #8 (1959) against his will, then quit: "I never wrote comics again." Roy Thomas recalled dealing with Weisinger inclined him to leave DC after only 8 days and move to Marvel in 1965.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 12-16-2011 at 05:06 PM.
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