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Old 12-21-2011, 01:00 AM   #93
Kurosawa
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
Byrne wasn't saying he made a mistake by removing Superboy as if he suddenly realized that Superboy was such a great character and he screwed up. He was say that the Powers That Were at DC double-crossed him by reneged on their promise. After he discovered that DC wouldn't let him do stories of Superman learning the ropes, he wished he had Superboy as a substitute for the learning the ropes stories that he wanted to tell with the adult Superman during his run.
Then he should have said he wished he got to tell those stories with an adult Superman, but instead he said he wished he had Superboy...probably because he realizes that mistakes are more forgivable when made by kids. He said he wished he had Superboy, so I think it's safe to assume he meant he wished he had Superboy not a young Superman.

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Superboy had already had been using his powers for good, so he didn't need the advice.
Irrelevant, and you clearly didn't read the scene. And as I said before, parents do that with their kids all the time.

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Miller made Selina Kyle a dominatrix. How is a dominatrix extremely misogynistic? He didn't make her a whore, a weak victim or a butch lesbian. Women under Miller usually are strong female characters. Assassin Elektra, Head Security Officer Casey McKenna, SHIELD agent Chastity McBryde, Police Commissioner Ellen Yindel, Carrie Kelley Robin, Martha Washington, Assassin Miho, Dominatrix Gail are all strong female characters created by Frank Miller. Carrie Kelley outwitted the mutants and saved Batman's life twice in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, and lead the Batboys, rescued the Atom and the Flash in Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again. That's a strong female. Frank Miller depicted Catwoman as a Dominatrix and Wonder Woman as an aggressive feminist and Black Canary as a strong independent character. Frank Miller's young upbeat walking, running and jumping Batgirl was much more liberated than the grim permanently paralyzed Barbara Gordon by everyone else at DC at the time.


http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/01/...ues_with_w.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011...ank-miller-row

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/49/sincity.php

I ain't the only one who sees sick Frank's hatred of women, gays and minorities.

Still, the point is that Siegel wanted Superboy there from the start and much of the tone of his early Superman stories is of a similar cocky, trickster nature like he wanted his Superboy to be.

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Batman did outsell Superman in the '60s from 1966 to 1967.
The one title did. Detective Comics never outsold Superman's solo title.

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I believe Superman sold more in the '50s. Batman never outsold Superman in the '50s.

Nothing to do with the Bronze Age and Modern Age writers Byrne, Maggin, Miller or Morrison. Obviously I have a love for comics history. The Silver Age includes the '50s as well. The Silver Age of comics began in 1954, by the way, not in the '60s. I don't see how I am undermining the Silver Age but stating that I believe that Superman sold more in the '50s.
I am quite aware of when the Silver Age started, thank you very much. Basically it comes off to me that you are trying to underestimate the success and importance of the 60's Superman comics since much of what is associated with Superman came from that period. Obviously, the continuing success of the Superman comics line after the George Reeves show ended compared to the collapse of Batman sales after Batmania crashed shows that the team on Superman at the time was selling their books based more of the quality of the comics and not the fame of the TV show-and the Superman show was never as big as the Batman show was for it's first season anyway-it was syndicated, not on a network, etc. Not that it wasn't really good for it's time, because it was.

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Originally Posted by Evil Twin View Post
I don't even have to throw in Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. Superman, Superboy, and Action alone significantly outsold Batman and Detective. Toss in two highly popular spinoffs and Adventure featuring Superboy and the LoSH and it's academic.

Your point, which you're cherrypicking data to try to make a case for Batman being bigger than Superman in the 1960s, isn't really true when you look at the data, including the fact that the Batman magazine wasn't even monthly during a good chunk of that period.

You want to argue that a good chunk of the foundation for Superman's success in the 1960s was laid down in the 1950s, that's fair. But, given readership turnover, it's obvious that the 1960s Superman team was doing something right as they sustained their success while Batman's sales declined and needed a significant revamp. And Batman needed a revamp again after sales crashed post-Batmania. There's plenty to like of Superman in the 1960s, from Shooter's LoSH, to "The Death of Superman" and other imaginary stories, to "Superman's Return to Krypton" among the highlights. The fact that Superman remained immensely popular for a decade after the George Reeves series ended has to be attributed to the fact that readers to the time responded to the actual comics. They liked Superman then.
Agree 100%. And Grant Morrison has been showing for years on both Superman and Batman just how good reconstructionist comics are, and how much better his approach is than the deconstructionist approach that was popular in the 80's. Waid's Birthright is important not only because it is a great series, but because it helped pave the way for Morrison to do All-Star Superman and his current Action Comics run.

One thing I do agree with theMan-Bat on is I don't like the new costumes-but I put up with Byrne's Superman in the classic costume, so I can easily deal with a Superman who is closer to what I like even if the costume is wrong.

As for the current Wonder Woman series, that is an entirely different can of worms and WW has had problems for decades, IMO.

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