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Old 12-22-2011, 11:49 PM   #102
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
Except for his rejection of Clark Kent, his Superman is very much the Donner movie version-the Krypton is as close as they could make it and would have been the same if they could have,
No, Geoff Johns' Krypton in Superman: Secret Origin is much closer to Donner's version than John Byrne's Krypton in The Man of Steel is.

John Byrne explained, "Oddly, the one thing in my version that most people seem to think was heavily inspired by the movie, my portrayal of Krypton, was not at all. I came from an entirely different direction, looking for that "look". I even went so far as to make "my" Krypton a desert work, so as not to be "confused" with the ice planet of the movie."

Superman himself was very naive and overly Boy Scout-the "Big Blue Boy Scout" was never a part of the classic Superman.
John Byrne did not portray Superman as very naive. Being overly Boy Scout-like was a part of the classic Superman. Superman iconically was very patriotic. Superman had been law-abidingly involved with the Metropolis Police Department and with Sargent Casey in particular in the comics by Jerry Siegel since the early '40s and Superman was involved with Inspector Henderson in particular on the Superman radio show beginning in 1940 and in the '50s on the iconic Adventures of Superman television series. In the comics was awarded Metropolis's Outstanding Citizen Award in Superman #93 (1954) "Jimmy Olsen's Double." It is revealed that Superman was awarded honorary citizenship in all of the countries in the United Nations in Superman #146 (1961) "The Story of Superman's Life." It is revealed in Action Comics #285 (1962) "The World's Greatest Heroine!" that Superman was awarded a special golden certificate by the United Nations giving him with the legal authority to apprehend criminals in U.N. member nations. For years Superman has been involved legally with the police (Superman #20 (1943) "Lair of the Leopard", and many others), as well as the U.S. Army (Superman #23 (1943) "America's Secret Weapon", and many others), the U.S. Navy (Superman #15 (1942) "The Napkanese Saboteurs", and many others), the F.B.I (Superman #25 (1943) "The Man Superman Refused to Help", and others), the U.S. Treasury Department (Superman #102 (1956) "Superman For Sale"), the Secret Service (Action Comics #256 (1959) "Superman of the Future") and U.S. Presidents (Superman #107 (1964) "Superman's Mission for President Kennedy").
The Superman School for Officers' Training, the nations largest Army officers training center, constructed single-handedly by Superman, at super-speed, as a favor to the U.S. Army in Action Comics #210 (1943) "Make Way For Fate!" Superman has held the rank of General in the U.S. Army in Superman #133 (1959) "Superman Joins the Army!" Metropolis police and the general public can summon Superman into action by contacting Clark Kent, widely known as Superman's friend, usually at the Daily Planet (as seen in Superman #57 (1949) "The Son of Superman!" and many others), or Metropolis police can summon Superman with the aid of the Super-Signal, a searchlight that casts a circle of light against the sky containing a red stylized "S" insignia patterned after the one on Superman's costume (as seen in World's Finest Comics #76 (1955) "When Gotham City Challenged Superman", etc.) or by means of a large loudspeaker mounted atop the roof of Metropolis police headquarters (as seen in Superman #114 (1957) "Soundproof Superman", etc.), and it's revealed that every nation knows how to get in touch with Superman through the White House in Action Comics #306 (1963) "The Great Superman Impersonation". In Action Comics #207 (1955) "The Four Superman Medals!" it is revealed that each year, in Superman's honor, the Metropolis Police Department awards a Superman Medal "to the person who's heroism helped Superman the most" during the proceeding year. Superman performs a dazzling performance of super-powered feats at the Policeman's Benefit Show at Metropolis Stadium in Superman #133 (1959) "The Super-Luck of Badge 77". At the ceremonies marking Police Day at Metropolis Stadium, Superman presented a gigantic police badge to the Metropolis police force in Superman #160 (1963) "The Super-Cop of Metropolis". The key to the city has been awarded to Superman by the mayor of Metropolis (Action Comics #328 (1965) "Superman's Hands of Doom"). Metropolis celebrates Superman Day (as seen in Superman #157 (1962) "Superman's Day of Doom", Action Comics #328 (1965) "Superman's Hands of Doom" and Action Comics #594 (1987) "All that Glisters"). Two commemorative stamps have been issued in Superman's honor, one by the U.S. Government in Superman #91 (1954) "The Superman Stamp!" and the other by the city of Rangoon, Burma in Superman #153 (1962) "The Secret of the Superman Stamp!"

The sad thing is one way or another, he wanted to show Superman being incompetent. Not that Superboy didn't make mistakes-he did-but the main thing seems to be that Byrne was wanting to deconstruct Superman by having him "learn the ropes", not unlike how Miller did with Batman, I suppose. That is something that can be done well, but also needs to be handled with caution. Regardless, it is there in his own words: "I wish I had had Superboy to fill that role."
John Byrne said, "I wanted to drop Superboy because he was not part of the original mythos."
He wanted to show Superman being closer to the original Jerry Siegel version that was published in the Golden Age. Superboy was a recon to Superman's publication history and the Superboy DC eventually published was largely written by Don Cameron, without the input or approval of Jerry Siegel.

Well, you don't get it, I suppose.
Well, the advice was rendered pointless by Superboy's heroic adventures, actually.

Unless it's praise.
Not if it's inaccurate praise at the expense of others. Such as the inaccurate praise that Batman had been campy throughout the Bronze Age comics and it was solely Frank Miller who brought Batman back to the dark roots, which isn't true. Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and many others had been returning Batman back to the dark roots since the '70s.

No, although he did write Superboy later on in the 60's.
Under Mort Weisigner's control.

It came off like you were claiming that Batman (as a franchise) outsold Superman (as a franchise) in the 60's and you were called out by me and several other people for that.
I was admittedly vague, because I was pressed for time, and was misunderstood because I didn't explain what I meant in detail. I've repeatedly explained what I meant since, I've even apologized from not explaining in more detail in the first place.

The top selling comics of the 50's were Dell's Walt Disney comics. And while much of what is associated with Superman came from the 30's-50's, of course, the most fruitful and iconic period of his existence is the 1959-1970 Weisinger period, especially the early 60's when Jerry Siegel came back and wrote his best stories ever. My personal favorite Superman eras are the Golden and Bronze Ages, but there is no question that the Silver Age Superman is the most iconic.
Most of the fruitful and iconic Superman characters, powers, and elements came from the '30s, '40s and '50s, which scopes the Golden Age and Silver Age.
Superman/Clark Kent first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first flew, rather than just leaping, in Superman #10 (1941) "The Talent Agency Fraud" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used super-strength in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Bullets first bounced off Superman's chest in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first smashes through a brick wall in Action Comics #12 (1939) "Traffic Safety" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first bends a gun out of shape in Superman #1 (1939) "Prelude to 'Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first crushes a lump of coal into a diamond in Action Comics #115 (1947) "The Wish That Came True" by Alvin Schwartz.
Superman first survives an atomic exposition in Action Comics #124 (1948) "A Superman of Doom."
Superman first used super-speed in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used super-hearing in Superman #2 (1939) "Superman and the Skyscrapers" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used x-ray and microscopic vision in Superman #11 (1939) "The Corinthville Caper" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used heat vision in Action Comics #139 (1949) "Clark Kent..Daredevil" by Bill Woolfolk.
Superman first burrows through the ground in Superman #11 (1941) "Zimba's Gold Badge Terrorists" by Jerry Siegel.
It's first stated that Superman can hold his breath of hours in Action Comics #15 (1939).
Superman first used super-breath in Action Comics #20 (1940) "Superman in Hollywood" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first inhaled chemicals by momentarily drawing air in a room into his lungs in Superman #60 (1949) "The Men Who Had to Guard Superman" by Bill Finger.
Superman first freezes something with his breath in World's Finest Comics #64 (1953) "The Death of Lois Lane" by William Woolfolk.
Superman first changed his clothes in a phone both in Superman #60 (1949) "Superman Fights the Super-Brain" by Don Cameron.
Superman first changed his clothes in the storage room at the Daily Planet in Action Comics #181 (1953) "The New Superman."
Lois Lane first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Jimmy Olsen's full name first appeared in the comics in Superman #15 (1942) "The Cop Who Was Ruined" by Jerry Siegel.
Perry White's full name first appeared in the comics in Superman #10 (1941) "The Invisible Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
The Daily Planet name first appeared in the comics in Superman #4 (1940) "Superman versus Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman's city was first called Metropolis in Action Comics #16 (1939) "The Gambling Expose" by Jerry Siegel.
Luthor first appeared bald in Superman #10 (1941) "The Invisible Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
Krypton first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Jor-El and Lara first appeared in the comic books in Superman #53 (1948) "The Origin of Superman" by Bill Finger.
Kryptonite first appeared in the comics in Superman #61 (1949) "Superman Returns To Krypton" by Bill Finger.
The Kents first appeared in Superman #1 (1939) "Origin of Superman" by Jerry Siegel.
The place Superman was raised was first called Smallville in Superboy #2 (1949) "Don't Miss The Stunts of Superboy."
Lana Lang first appeared in Superman #10 (1950) "The Girl in Superboy's Life" by Bill Finger.
Mr. Mxyztplk first appeared in Superman #30 (1944) "The Mysterious Mr. Mxyztplk" by Jerry Siegel. His name first appeared as the more iconic spelling of Mr. Mxyzptlk in Action Comics #208 (1955) "The Magic of Mr. Mxyztplk" by William Woolfolk.
The Prankster first appeared in Action Comics #51 (1942) "The Case of the Crimeless Crimes" by Jerry Siegel.
Toyman first appeared in Action Comics #64 (1943) "The Terrible Toyman" by Don Cameron.
Brainiac first appeared in Action Comics #242 (1958) "The Super-Duel in Space" by Otto Binder.
Bizarro first appeared in Superboy #68 (1958) "The Thing of Steel" by Otto Binder.
The John Corben Metallo first appeared in Action Comics #252 (1959) "The Menace of Metallo" by Robert Bernstein.
Titano first appeared in Superman #127 (1959) "Titano the Super-Ape" by Jerry Coleman.
Jimmy Olsen's signal watch first appeared in Action Comics #238 (1958) "The Super-Gorilla" by Otto Binder.
Lori Lemaris first appeared in Superman #129 (1959) "The Girl in Superman's Past" by Bill Finger.
Lucy Lane first appeared in Jimmy Olsen #36 (1959) "Lois Lane's Sister" by Otto Binder.
The Fortress of Solitude first appeared in Superman #58 (1949) "The Case of the Second Superman". The giant key to the Fortress of Solitude first appeared in Action Comics #241 (1958) "The Super-Key to Fort Superman" by Jerry Coleman.
Superboy first appeared in More Fun Comics #101 (1945) "The Origin of Superboy."
Superboy began teaming with the Legion of Super-Heroes in Adventure Comics #247 (1958) "The Legion of Super-Heroes" by Otto Binder.
Supergirl first appeared in Action Comics #252 (1959) "The Supergirl from Krypton" by Otto Binder.
Krypto first appeared in Adventure Comics #210 (1955) "The Superdog from Krypton" by Otto Binder.

Yes, but they were never as big as the Batman TV show briefly was. I feel those shows did well because of the popularity and quality of the Superman comics of the time, not the other way around, as was the case with Batmania. Not that the Schwartz/Fox/Finger/Infantino/Giella etc Batman of that time wasn't really good, because quite a bit of it was, and a big improvement over the Jack Schiff edited Batman of the late 50's-early 60's. Although I think those comics get kind of a bum rap.
The Adventures of Superman show starring George Reeves was very successful, lasting for six seasons from 1952 to 1958, and was going to have a seventh season until the tragic death of George Reeves. That show definitely helped boost the popularity of Superman, Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen and the sales Superman comic books and merchandise. Jack Larson made Jimmy Olsen more popular and it was explained in the documentary Look, Up in the Sky! The Amazing Story of Superman (2006), that largely because of the popularity of Jack Larson's portrayal of Jimmy Olsen, DC decided to create a regular title featuring Jimmy as the leading character in 1954. Mort Weisinger and Whitney Ellsworth even wanted to do a Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen spin-off television show after George Reeves' death, and reuse stock footage of George Reeves from the Adventures of Superman, but Jack Larson refused the offer, disgusted by the idea.
Many Superman comics were even adaptions of episodes of the Adventures of Superman television series. DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth was also the producer of The Adventures of Superman television series and DC's Superman comics editor Mort Weisinger was also the story editor of The Adventures of Superman television series.
World's Finest Comics #68 (January, 1954) "The Menace From The Stars" is a loose adaption of the episode "Panic In The Sky" by Roy Hamilton, which aired on December 5th, 1953.
Superman #88 (March, 1954) "The Dog Who Loved Superman" by Jerry Coleman is an adaption of the episode "The Dog Who Knew Superman" by David Chantler, which aired on November 14th, 1953.
Superman #91 (August, 1954) "Great Caesar's Ghost" by Bill Woolfolk is an adaption of the episode "Great Caesar's Ghost" by Jackson Gillis, which aired on May 21st, 1955.
Action Comics #200 (January, 1955) "Test of a Warrior" is an adaption of the episode "Test of a Warrior" by Leroy H. Zehren, which aired on May 28th, 1955.
Superman #96 (March, 1955) "The Girl Who Didn't Believe In Superman" by Bill Finger is a loose adaption of the episode "Around The World With Superman" by Jackson Gillis, which aired on March 13th, 1954.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 10-31-2012 at 01:48 AM.
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