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Old 12-23-2011, 11:34 PM   #106
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
John Byrne, 1986:

Originally Posted by John Byrne
Byrne has previously stated that he wanted to "update" the look of Krypton, which he claimed remained "stuck" in a 1930s Buck Rogers-like art style for decades. "I liked the cold, antiseptic Krypton that I saw in the movie, but we couldn't do it for copyright reasons. So Dick and Jenette said, 'Redesign Krypton. That's the first thing that we're going to see in the new series. The very first page should tell us that everything is different.'"

I don't like Geoff Johns' movie style Krypton at all, either. I only like classic, Flash Gordon style Krypton.
I don't like Geoff Johns' shoehorning the Richard Donner movie style Krypton into the comics at all, either. It looks just as dated to the 1978 movie with the feathered hair, etc., as the Silver Age and Bronze Age Krypton looked to the 1930s Flash Gordon movie serials. I prefer The Man of Steel version by John Byrne. Byrne really updated it without just repeating Donner's version.

And he had been at odds with the authorities before that, and he was still hunted by police when Batman and Robin were officially deputized, but you cherrypick and ignore that fact. All DC heroes were law-abiding good guys by the early 40's, even the Spectre and Hawkman, who were the most wanton killers before that.
I do not ignore early Superman stories where he was a vigilante and I do not ignore Batman being officially deputized in the comics first. Batman becoming part of the establishment in Batman #7 (1941) "The People vs. The Batman" wasn't really Bill Finger's decision. Bob Kane explained in his autobiography Batman & Me, "The editors placed increasing limitations on what Bill and I could do. The new editorial policy was to get away from Batman's vigilantism and to bring him over to the side of the law. The whole moral climate changed after the 1940-1941 period. DC prepared it's own comics code which every writer and artist had to follow. It forbade any whippings or hangings, knifings, or sexual references. Even the word 'flick' was forbidden because the lettering (all in block capitals) might run together."
Here's some scans from that book:

DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth had created DC's own comics code in the form of an Editorial Advisory Board in 1941.
These book excerpts are from Comic Book Nation by Bradford W. Wright about the Editorial Board DC had:

And the effect on Batman:

Every DC title had a list of the Editorial Advisory Board members on the inside front cover:
Jerry Siegel's Superman's early vigilante actives consisted of his concerned for social issues and early attempts at social reform without having the legal authority, including traffic safety, juvenile delinquency, urban renewal. Superman also executed criminals occasionally without legal authority, but much less frequently than Batman had killed criminals.

Batman was made part of the establishment because of the new editorial policy to get away from Batman's vigilantism and to bring him over to the side of the law. Unlike Finger and Kane's stated dislike of DC's insistence in 1941 that Batman become part of the establishment, Superman's progression into having an accepted relationship in the establishment was never stated as an issue of contention for Jerry Siegel, and Superman's gradual developing acceptance in the establishment seems more like natural character progression by Jerry Siegel since Superman wasn't forced into the establishment in 1941 like Batman had been by DC's new Editorial Advisory Board.

Bill Finger and Bob Kane made it clear that Batman would have remained an anti-establishment vigilante had Bill Finger and Bob Kane had control. But Superman wouldn't have remained the same if Jerry Siegel had complete control. Jerry Siegel's "The K-Metal from Krypton" story of Superman in 1940, with revealing his secret identity to Lois, which had been completely penciled, inked, and lettered, made it clear that Jerry Siegel was interested in evolving and changing Superman's life with character growth, relationships evolving and changing. I believe that included Superman's relationship with the establishment evolving and changing over time.

As for Superman's relationship with the establishment:
In Action Comics #1 (1938) by Jerry Siegel, the Governor says to the members of his staff about Superman, "Thank heaven he's apparently on the side of law and order!"
In Superman #13 (1941) "Baby on the Doorstep" by Jerry Siegel, when Superman turns a captured foreign spy chief over to the police force, one of the police officers remarks admirably to Superman, "If we could only draft you into the force!"
In Superman #15 (1942) "The Napkanese Saboteurs" by Jerry Siegel, Superman aids the U.S. Navy and has thwarted an attempt by Napkan saboteurs to sink a newly christened American battleship, Navyman Hank Fox pays Superman this tribute, "How fortunate we are here in America to have someone of Superman's caliber to aid us! In my opinion, he's worth several Armies and Navies!"
In Superman #17 (1942) "When Titans Clash" by Jerry Siegel, when Superman turns a group of Luthor's henchmen over to the police, Superman says, "Always glad to help the police!"
In Superman #20 (1943) "Lair of the Leopard" by Jerry Siegel, as Superman helps the police apprehend the Leopard's henchmen, a police office remarks about Superman, "To think we once considered him outside the law!"
In Superman #22 (1943) "The Great ABC Panic" by Jerry Siegel, the nation plunges into chaos when the Prankster copyrights the English alphabet, and Clark thinks to himself, "What can I do? The Prankster has the law on his side, and I won't flout justice at any cost!"

Batman was an extremely violent vigilante, and beat up police and used an actual gun that fired bullets and killed with it, Batman killed often, and comic books were getting criticized for violence, which is why DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth was so strict that Batman never use a gun again, never kill again and immediately become part of the establishment in 1941.

Denny O'Neil had returned Batman as a dark, mysterious vigilante back in the '70s Bronze Age. Michael Fleisher had returned the Spectre as a dark and vicious entity killing villains in creative and gruesome ways in the '70s Bronze Age, while Superman stayed iconically patriotic and law-abiding in the Bronze Age.

But he would have been, had Siegel gotten his way. But that is just as much DC's mistake as Byrne's-he did say he would have been willing to work within the previous continuity, and Alan Moore actually cautioned the upper brass at DC against throwing out the classic Superman for they risked alienating their most loyal readers. And they did lose a fair share of them, (although they kept suckers like me).
Yes, John Byrne said that Dick Giordano came to him and asked him to reboot Superman, and Byrne said that he would have been willing to work within the previous continuity.

To me, the scene as originated by Bill Finger, who was a father, was more of an example of how parents stay parents until the very end-even on his deathbed, Jonathan Kent was being Clark's father.
The deathbed advice made sense in the origin story written by Bill Finger because that origin story didn't include Superboy, so Clark hadn't already been using his powers for the good of mankind.

Agree with you here, but I've never seen you criticize anything Miller has done.
I've never seen you criticize anything Maggin has done.

He still did it, and his stories he wrote for Mort were his best stories ever, IMO.
Jerry Siegel's best stories were in the Golden Age, in my opinion, especially the wildly imaginative "Case of the Funny Paper Crimes," the action-packed "Bandit Robots of Metropolis," "The Beasts of Luthor", etc. Jerry Siegel still had such creative freedom to let his imagination run wild in the Golden Age.

Never said it wasn't, but it was never on the Batman series first season level of popularity. I thought it was a great show given the effects limitations of the time. And it had much more lasting power than the Batman TV series, although it may have lasted longer had they not demolished the sets and NBC had picked it up.

The legacy of the Adventures of Superman TV series, aside from it's over very positive influence on the comics themselves, was the later on success of syndicated original shows, best represented by Star Trek TNG, Xena and Hercules. And also the syndicated Superboy series.
The Adventures of Superman starring George Reeves has certainly had lasting power. It's been aired in syndication for decades. In 1965 and 1966 Topps released card sets of the Adventures of Superman series starring George Reeves, rather than pictures from the '60s comics. The legacy of the Adventures of Superman TV series includes it's influence on The New Adventures of Superman TV series by Filmation in the '60s, the "Truth, justice and the American way" line in Donner's Superman: The Movie in 1978, John Byrne's characterization of Clark Kent in 1986, Inspector Henderson introduced into the comics in 1987, the original Superman title renamed Adventures of Superman in 1987, the Ruby-Spears Superman series using the classic introduction "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive," etc. in 1988, etc., etc.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 05-12-2013 at 07:52 PM.
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