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Old 12-27-2011, 10:24 PM   #113
theMan-Bat
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
The police only went after Batman a few times as well, and it seemed more like Gordon himself who early on had an issue with him, mostly because Batman was making the police look incompetent.
The police went after Batman more than just a few times.
"It's the Bat-Man! Get him!" shouts Gordon to his officers as he spies Batman atop a nearby roof in Detective Comics #27 (May, 1939) "The Case of the Crime Syndicate" by Bill Finger.
Batman shoved over a police officer in Detective Comics #35 (January, 1940) "The Case of the Ruby Idol" by Bill Finger.

Batman flees from the police in Detective Comics #36 (February, 1940) "Professor Hugo Strange" by Bill Finger.
Batman says "Sorry boys, but I'm not quite ready for jail!" in the Drake Museum as Batman fights his way to freedom through a phalanx of Gotham police in Batman #1 (Summer, 1940) "The Joker Returns" by Bill Finger.

Gotham Police Detective McGonigle made a series of attempts to arrest Batman for his vigilantism. Batman grabs Detective McGonigle's gun, pushes him in the face and escapes in Batman #3 (Fall, 1940) "The Ugliest Man in the World" by Bill Finger.

Again, Detective McGonigle makes an attempt to arrest Batman, but Batman pushes McGonigle off of the pier at Gotham's waterfront and escapes again with Robin.


Again, Detective McGonigle makes an attempt to arrest Batman. McGonigle says, "Up with 'em now..And no tricks!" Batman replies, "Why, McGonigle, I wouldn't think of tricking you! ...Or would I!" and pulls McGonigle's derby down over his eyes and escapes again with Robin.


Detective McGonigle actually succeeds in handcuffing Batman, but Batman punches McGonigle and escapes again in Batman #3 (Fall, 1940) "The Batman vs. the Cat-Woman" by Bill Finger.


After a battle with a gang of bank robbers, Batman and Robin leap through a window into the river to escape the arriving police in Batman #5 (Spring, 1941) "Crime Does Not Pay" by Bill Finger.
Batman is caught by Gotham City Patrolman Riley, who lets Batman hit him and escape, Batman replies, "Say, you're okay!" and punches the cop in the face in "The Case of the Three Devils!" from Detective Comics #50 (April, 1941) by Bill Finger.

Batman is pursued by the police after battling henchmen of Loo Chung in Detective Comics #52 (June, 1941) "The Secret of the Jade Box" by Bill Finger.
"The police," remarks Batman wryly, "aren't exactly too fond of my slightly different way in fighting crime!" as Batman and Robin fight their way past some police in order to avoid arrest in Batman #6 (August-September, 1941) "Murder on Parole" by Bill Finger.
Batman breaks into a prison and throws sleeping gas at the guards in Batman #6 (August-September, 1941) "Murder on Parole" by Bill Finger.

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With Batman, it was more that Gordon correctly made the case that Batman's operations helped make Gotham City a better place.
Which Gordon comes to realize in Batman: Year One.

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And there were several early Batman stories that also reflected a social conscience, as Batman helped keep youths away from crime.
Which happens in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns with the Sons of the Batman, the Mutants and the black out rioters.

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It's just that Miller dislikes the character of Superman, IMO, and until he shows him in a positive light, I'll continue to believe that.
By 1986 Superman had been shown iconically as a member of the establishment for decades in the '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s in the comic books, on radio, on television and on films.

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He killed no more often than other early super-heroes, but he was much more famous than characters like Hawkman, who also killed. And other characters, like Captain America, Bucky, Human Torch and Toro, and Sub-Mariner all did a lot of killing too, but that was war so it's different. Timely's books were always wilder and more violent than National's.
Batman destroyed a dirigible airship, killing the Scarlet Horde army of 2,000 men aboard, in Detective Comics #33 (1939) "The Batman Wars Against the Dirigible of Doom" by Gardner Fox.

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Not everyone thought Superman was beyond reproach in the Bronze Age:
I didn't say Superman was beyond criticism, especially from Morgan Edge.

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Even with a Superboy history, parents stay parents until the end and to them, it is all about their children and helping them. And the way Maggin wrote the scene, if you had read it, then you would understand that Jonathan's point it he can't treat it like it is fun and games forever.
Jonathan says, "No man on Earth has the amazing powers you have. You can use them to become a powerful force for good. To fight those criminals best you must hide your true identity." Yet, Superboy had already been doing those things. He began wearing glasses as Clark to hide his identity in More Fun Comics #107 (January-February 1946) "Ordeal on Wheels!"

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1. That's avoiding the question
2. I'm not a big fan of his Superwoman character.
3. You defended Miller's Spirit movie.
1. That's making a point that someone who is a fan of someones material are not likely to be seen going around criticizing it.
2. I'm not a big fan of his 300 story.
3. I liked Miller's Spirit movie.

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I love his Golden Age stuff, but nothing he wrote then could touch "The Death of Superman!" and "Superman's Return to Krypton" to me. Except for the Powerstone Saga, that is. It's actually my favorite Superman story of all time.
The Powerstone story-line was awesome.

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Never said it wasn't. But it wasn't as important as the Batman TV series, or that is to say it was not as harmful as the Batman TV series was to Batman-in fact it didn't hurt Superman at all, while Batman has always had to deal with the effects of the campy TV show. It's taken the Nolan movies to finally sort of put it behind Batman.
The Adventures of Superman, because it treated Superman sincerely and made Superman look awesome rather than the butt of a joke, was enduringly important to Superman's continued popularity and success, and definitely had a positive effect on Superman. Joel Schumacher's Batman films have more of a negative, eye-rolling, cringe inducing effect than the Adam West TV show, to me anyway.

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Regardless, have a good holiday.
I am, thanks. Happy holidays to you.

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THE DEATH OF "SUPERMAN LIVES": WHAT HAPPENED?
Release date currently unknown.


FRANK MILLER'S SIN CITY A DAME TO KILL FOR
In theaters now.

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 05-12-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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