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Old 05-07-2012, 09:51 AM   #63
The Guard
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

There's not a lot I can say tbh. She's just terrible in this film. I can think of 3 seperate instances where a scene ends on one of her lines and they're all total bum notes. When she first hears about the cure and ends the scene with her little speech to Rogue, when she tells Logan that he needs to "be with us", and when everyone boards the X-Jet and she asks Logan if he's "ready to do what he needs to when the time comes". She's just plain horrible.
She's no better or worse than she is in the previous movies. As I recall, most critics and fans didn't believe she was horrible, either. It doesn't matter, really. It's your opinion. You're welcome to it.

Jean and Storm seemed pretty close in X2, at least to me... Just the slightest bit of conflict would have been nice. Even just a a line to identify how/why Storm can tell so definitively that Jean is gone (especially as we the audience are shown that she is still in there).
In that they worked together? Certainly not the "close" that they were in the comics. Not sure what you're basing this on.

Tu Quoque, but I still don't agree. I can tell from X2 that Ice-man is a nice guy with a sense of humour, he's not particularly aggressive and enjoys playing around, including with his power. He's well adjusted, but has a slightly passive aggressive relationship with Wolverine over Rogue's affection.
Pyro is a bit of an ass. He's angry, likes to tease people and reacts viloently when his power is questioned. He is easily seduced by Magneto because feeling superior is very appealing to him.

Angel is very different. He doesn't really interact with anyone, and so we're never given anything about what he's like as a person. We can tell he was ashamed of his mutation as a kid, doesn't agree with the cure later on; yet we don't even know why he runs away. Huge disappointment, and a total waste of a good idea. For all we know, Angel refued the treatment cause he was scared of needles.

First, Pyro is shown to be anything but "well adjusted' in X2.

I'd rather have exploration of a character and their conflicts and choices than learn random facts about a character's past. Any day.

You can learn things about Angel, too, in the few scenes he's in. He obviously wants to please his father, and is a bit shy, or rather, repressed. He's probably not had an easy home life, because his father is obviously ashamed of his mutantcy. He is frightened and reluctant to undergo the cure, and is ultimately angry that its being forced upon him. He reacts somewhat violently when restrained (huh, look at that). He values his differences, yet forgives his father for his bigotry, and rescues him in the end. He also values the idea of the X-Men, as he clearly needs refuge later in the movie.

If you don't know why Angel runs away...yeesh. Its blatantly obvious. He's embracing his mutant gifts and fleeing his father's repression. He wants to be free, not kept under wraps. Its apparent visually and storywise.

Tu Quoque again, and again, I don't agree. There wasn't a whole lot to Logan and Jean in X1 & X2, but it wasn't used to anchor those films so it doesn't matter.
You don't agree with what? That the romantic aspects in previous films weren't well handled?

So now because it wasn't used to anchor those two films, it doesn't matter?

It's not an extension of his previous arc, it's a retread. The film purposely starts with him being reluctant and distant, to the extent that he doesn't even seem to be staying there for any extend period of time. That doesn't mesh with X2 where his arc culminated in choosing the Xmen. I think it's bad writing to reset that, especially when he moves no further beyond that point. TLS ends, and he's chosen to be an X-Man... just like the last film.'s not a retread of his previous arc.

Wolverine's arc in X2 was mostly about finding out who he was and coming to terms with it. If you'll recall, Wolverine chose to be an X-Man in X-MEN as well. The whole loner VS X-Men thing was secondary to his main storyline, and is, in fact, a theme that has run through all three films. The point of his arc in X2 is that he learned and admitted he had a violent past, but chose not to become what Stryker wanted him to, deciding to try to find his answers with the X-Men. He was beginning to grow into a key member of the team in X2, just as he started to do in X-MEN.

In X3 he took this further, building on the lessons of X2. It's not a "retread", because it explored different elements of his membership of the team and of his life, namely taking he took part in training, had a hand in mentoring the younger X-Men, and became a leader, which he was not in X2, where he barely wanted to be part of the team's actions unless it served his ends. It's an evolving character arc.

Well it sure does play out like an every day love tradegy. Jean may not love Logan, but her role in the film isn't large enough to actually incorporate what she feels. The film we do get is about a man who has to kill his lover. It's no more complicated than that, even it if evidently should be.
I'm not sure what "everyday love tragedy" even means.

It's made very clear what Jean feels in X2, and its made obvious in X3 that the Phoenix feels lust for Logan, but that she's messing with him, and that this is not the real Jean. There's no love going on between them. Wolverine loves her, but she does not return it.

He doesn't "have to kill his lover", because they are not lovers. He has to kill the woman he loves. That doesn't make it anything resembling a typical love story.

That glance in X2 doesn't make an arc, but it tells us a lot more about Pyro than we learn in the next film. As for the arc, that is covered by the choice he makes at the end of the film, to abandon his firends and join Magneto.
He doesn't do anything in TLS. He starts on the path he joined in X2, and the film ends with him exactly the same, albeit unconscious/dead.

He absolutely does do something in THE LAST STAND. Since he, at the end of X, joined Magneto, now his role is evolving.

He has essentially become Magneto's bodyguard, and stands up for him in the mutant meeting. He wants to "belong" so much that he states he would have killed the professor had he been asked. But he's all talk. However, he goes from merely being verbal about his support for the Brotherhood's goals, to actively taking part in terrorist activities. By the end of the film, he's progressed from being derogatory about those who want to take the cure, and merely taunting Bobby, and is ultimately willing to kill his former friend, as well as his former teammates. This is an evolution of character, and stuff about him we certainly didn't know in X2.

I like how the X/Jean/Magneto dynamic is presented from the different times in her life, but there's little pay-off from the second time around. Magneto is great, goading her and manipulating her, but there's very little consequence to his actions. He got Charles killed, and while there is a nice moment later on that shows what Charles meant Mags, he goes on with his plan a little too easily after seeing just how dangerous Jean is.
"Easily" is relative, and that's kind of the point. She's dormant as long as he doesn't want to diminish her, though she threatens him at one point.

As far as "little consequence to his actions", there's a very, very clear moment in the movie when Magneto realizes he has tampered with powers he couldn't control.

Jean on the other hand is just damn unreliable. Famke acts her ass off in this film, but the inside of Jean's head is a bag of cats. Charles' last words to her are "don't let it control you", and we sadly don't see very much in the way of internal conflict until her very last scene where she has Logan kill her.
There is very obvious external/internal conflict when she wakes with Logan.

There is also conflict at the end of the film when she's trying to kill Logan. Dark Phoenix is every bit as well handled as Jean's Phoenix abilities in X2 were, and actually a lot better, and more fully fleshed out. The issue is developed, and she evolves as a character.

Finally, Charles fails to contain Jean and dies. Boom, heartbreaking. Not enough emotional weight, we didn't see how much Jean meant to him, how much he meant to Jean.
That's nonsense. We see plenty about how much Jean means to Charles. The whole point of the scene is that he wants to help her. He even asks Eric to avoid interfering because she is not well. He is willing to die for her in order to help her, to battle the Dark Phoenix. His last words are "Don't let it control you", which obviously points to him caring about her.

What he did to Jean isn't what I'm refering to (although we are shown painfully little of why he made his choice. Jean seemed pretty stable in the flashback), what I'm refereing to is how he cusses out Logan for questioning his decision. It's totally out of character, and not only diminishes the wisdom and likability of Xavier, but it makes his decision to go inside of Jean's head questionable because he apparently struggles to defend it. I can buy that Xavier is the kind of guy smart enough to make a "terrible choice", because he's smart and compassionate. *****ing out and getting defensive undermines that completely.
He doesn't cuss out Logan. He says "I don't have to explain myself. Least of all to you". It's not out of character, it's just not an aspect of Xavier we had seen prior to that scene. Read a comic book. Xavier is allowed to be stressed out, and occassionally rude.

In a film so brief, you really don't want this being the most memorable thing a character does before he dies.
It wasn't.

"Perception is the enemy of reason."

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