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Old 05-07-2012, 02:57 PM   #65
henzINNIT's Avatar
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
She's no better or worse than she is in the previous movies. As I recall, most critics and fans didn't believe she was horrible, either. It doesn't matter, really. It's your opinion. You're welcome to it.

In that they worked together? Certainly not the "close" that they were in the comics. Not sure what you're basing this on.
Their interaction when sent on a mission together displayed a fondness that was palpable and enjoyable. I wish they had more scenes together tbh.

First, Pyro is shown to be anything but "well adjusted' in X2.
I agree. Notice how I never said that about Pyro, and I was clearly talking about Bobby.

I'd rather have exploration of a character and their conflicts and choices than learn random facts about a character's past. Any day.
...okay? Me too.

You can learn things about Angel, too, in the few scenes he's in. He obviously wants to please his father, and is a bit shy, or rather, repressed. He's probably not had an easy home life, because his father is obviously ashamed of his mutantcy. He is frightened and reluctant to undergo the cure, and is ultimately angry that its being forced upon him. He reacts somewhat violently when restrained (huh, look at that). He values his differences, yet forgives his father for his bigotry, and rescues him in the end. He also values the idea of the X-Men, as he clearly needs refuge later in the movie.

If you don't know why Angel runs away...yeesh. Its blatantly obvious. He's embracing his mutant gifts and fleeing his father's repression. He wants to be free, not kept under wraps. Its apparent visually and storywise.
Angel's father is depicted as being fairly reasonable tbh. In the flashback, he is concerned about his son, and horrified by what the kid did to himself. You assume that Angel's shame stems from a relationship with his father but there's nothing to imply that. Angel is shown to be ashamed, not his father.

Daddy isn't depicted as a bigot at any point. He says he wants to help free people from the mutant condition and there's never a scene to disprove that. He apparently dedicated his life to a cure for his son. He may have been wrong, but he's not shown to be evil at any point.

I actually prefered his character over his son's, because unlike Angel, Worthington Sr is a more active character in the plot, and his POV on the cure is grounded with far more context and emotional weight.

I was joking about the fear of needles, but it shows how little Foster had to work with when you could say a needle phobia was the case and there'd be little in the film to disprove it.

You don't agree with what? That the romantic aspects in previous films weren't well handled?

So now because it wasn't used to anchor those two films, it doesn't matter?
I don't agree that the triangle wasn't well handled in the previous installments. It was a small element in those films. Logan developed a bond with Jean, a crush that he pursued, got shot down and finally consoled Scott after she died. It worked fine.

It doesn't matter because X1 and X2 have no bearing on the quality of TLS. Tu Quoque.

Quote:'s not a retread of his previous arc.

Wolverine's arc in X2 was mostly about finding out who he was and coming to terms with it. If you'll recall, Wolverine chose to be an X-Man in X-MEN as well. The whole loner VS X-Men thing was secondary to his main storyline, and is, in fact, a theme that has run through all three films. The point of his arc in X2 is that he learned and admitted he had a violent past, but chose not to become what Stryker wanted him to, deciding to try to find his answers with the X-Men. He was beginning to grow into a key member of the team in X2, just as he started to do in X-MEN.

In X3 he took this further, building on the lessons of X2. It's not a "retread", because it explored different elements of his membership of the team and of his life, namely taking he took part in training, had a hand in mentoring the younger X-Men, and became a leader, which he was not in X2, where he barely wanted to be part of the team's actions unless it served his ends. It's an evolving character arc.
Actually, if I remember (and I do), Logan left the Xmen at the end of the first film, with a promise that he'd return to see Rogue.

It's the second film that develops the story of who he is. He eventually disgards a promise to learn about his past with Stryker in favour of staying with the Xmen and beginning his future.

TLS is a retread because no matter how the circumstance have changed, all he has to learn from it all is that he wants to be in the team. Useless.

He made the choice to join the team. He chose them over his own ends. He did this in X2.

He didn't rise to become a leader. He's never asked to be a leader. He doesn't mentor the kids. The most effective teaching he gives is in the first film with Rogue. He gives a lame speech about being Xmen, imediately after ditching them to seek out Jean. What changed his mind? Nothing. It's bad writing.

Furthermore, the things that draw him away from the team in this film are pitiful too. Instead of the lure of his lost memories, it's saving Jean. Fair enough. How does that cause tension with the team exactly? Surely the team are just as interested in confronting Jean, whether she can be saved or not... Nope. The tension is: Storm forbids him from tracking down Jean. Ah okay. That makes sense.

He doesn't "have to kill his lover", because they are not lovers. He has to kill the woman he loves. That doesn't make it anything resembling a typical love story.
It's far more typical from his point of view than hers. She's basically Angel in Buffy when he loses his soul. The complexities of Jean's struggles are largely glossed over. It's not helped by all the scenes of her standing motionless in the background while other plots move forward either. There's no urgency in her plight because the film switches the threat of Phoenix on-and-off.

He absolutely does do something in THE LAST STAND. Since he, at the end of X, joined Magneto, now his role is evolving.

He has essentially become Magneto's bodyguard, and stands up for him in the mutant meeting. He wants to "belong" so much that he states he would have killed the professor had he been asked. But he's all talk. However, he goes from merely being verbal about his support for the Brotherhood's goals, to actively taking part in terrorist activities. By the end of the film, he's progressed from being derogatory about those who want to take the cure, and merely taunting Bobby, and is ultimately willing to kill his former friend, as well as his former teammates. This is an evolution of character, and stuff about him we certainly didn't know in X2.
You've invented that arc. He went from threatening violence against Bobby to commiting viloence against Bobby. That isn't development. He wasn't reluctant before, he wasn't all words. He commited violent acts throughout the entire film, destroying cure centres, killing prison guards. You're reaching with this, seriously.

"Easily" is relative, and that's kind of the point. She's dormant as long as he doesn't want to diminish her, though she threatens him at one point.

As far as "little consequence to his actions", there's a very, very clear moment in the movie when Magneto realizes he has tampered with powers he couldn't control.
You mean that hokey line "What have.. I done?" that even McKellen couldn't save? That line at the end of the film where he realises that Jean can't be controlled? Where he's supposed to learn something that was absolutely obvious from the moment she obliterated his best friend despite his desperate protests? God this film is awful lol.

There is very obvious external/internal conflict when she wakes with Logan.

There is also conflict at the end of the film when she's trying to kill Logan. Dark Phoenix is every bit as well handled as Jean's Phoenix abilities in X2 were, and actually a lot better, and more fully fleshed out. The issue is developed, and she evolves as a character.
What is this fleshed out evolution you speak of? Please, go on.

That's nonsense. We see plenty about how much Jean means to Charles. The whole point of the scene is that he wants to help her. He even asks Eric to avoid interfering because she is not well. He is willing to die for her in order to help her, to battle the Dark Phoenix. His last words are "Don't let it control you", which obviously points to him caring about her.
When is this "what Charles means to Jean" material then? She appears to wake up... and erm... tells him to stay out of her head... and ... oh yeah.. kills him.

Charles' motivation is blurred by his uneven characterisation. He seems petty to Logan, and his bickering with Magneto is understandable yet doesn't carry the tension of his desperation to reign her in. Again, the film fails to make me root for Charles by the time he dies.


He doesn't cuss out Logan. He says "I don't have to explain myself. Least of all to you". It's not out of character, it's just not an aspect of Xavier we had seen prior to that scene. Read a comic book. Xavier is allowed to be stressed out, and occassionally rude.

It wasn't.
That's cussing out in my book. It's a petty and personal attack, and makes the viewer question his intent and wisdom. It's okay for his composure to be lost in times of stress, but it's unbalanced in the film and does a diservice to a great character and later a major loss to the team. He's rapidly cast into doubt and killed, which wastes both interesting ideas by playing them off-together and diminishing both.

Last edited by henzINNIT; 05-07-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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