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Old 05-08-2012, 12:10 PM   #68
The Guard
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Their interaction when sent on a mission together displayed a fondness that was palpable and enjoyable. I wish they had more scenes together tbh.
They got along well enough as teammates...I remember some humor surrounding Nightcrawler's appearance. There's nothing about them actually being close friends in the films. What specifically are you referring to?

I agree. Notice how I never said that about Pyro, and I was clearly talking about Bobby.
Ah. Sorry about that.

...okay? Me too.
And this is my point. You made the statement "We learn more about Pyro from one glance in X2".

A, I don't believe that's true.

B, I don't want one glance. I want actions and exploration of themes. That's what we got with Pyro in his Magneto scene in X2, and in THE LAST STAND.

Angel's father is depicted as being fairly reasonable tbh. In the flashback, he is concerned about his son, and horrified by what the kid did to himself. You assume that Angel's shame stems from a relationship with his father but there's nothing to imply that. Angel is shown to be ashamed, not his father.
There's nothing to imply that Warren's shame stems from his relationship with his father?

How about the opening sequence where Warren is cutting off his wings, and Warren Sr says "Oh, God...not you".

And Angel says "Dad. I'm sorry"...and looks ashamed and sad.

He's quite clearly not happy with Warren wings.

Daddy isn't depicted as a bigot at any point. He says he wants to help free people from the mutant condition and there's never a scene to disprove that. He apparently dedicated his life to a cure for his son. He may have been wrong, but he's not shown to be evil at any point.
I never said he was depicted as a bigot or that he was depicted as evil.

People who want their children to be "normal" aren't neccessarily evil, and there's some nice depth that is brought to X3 with that angle. A more balanced view say, than, Bobby's parents in X2. These types of parents are often still repressing their children, which is what Warren Sr. apparently does. He tries to convince Warren to take the cure, when Warren clearly doesn't want to. So Warren escapes.

I actually prefered his character over his son's, because unlike Angel, Worthington Sr is a more active character in the plot, and his POV on the cure is grounded with far more context and emotional weight.
They're both pretty good characters. Overlapping, part of the same basic arc.

I was joking about the fear of needles, but it shows how little Foster had to work with when you could say a needle phobia was the case and there'd be little in the film to disprove it.
Except that you couldn't say that. Only a blithering idiot could watch this movie and in the context of the film and that scene say that Warren doesn't want the cure because he's afraid of needles.

It is obvious why he doesn't take the cure.

Warren Sr: "It's a normal life. It's what we all want."
Warren: "No. It's what you want".

He doesn't want to be cured. The film makes this quite clear.

I don't agree that the triangle wasn't well handled in the previous installments. It was a small element in those films. Logan developed a bond with Jean, a crush that he pursued, got shot down and finally consoled Scott after she died. It worked fine.
It wasn't all that well handled in previous movies compared to many other romantic arcs I've seen, including most comic book ones. Logan and Jean have no real commonality besides basic attraction. By the end of X2, despite these elements not being well handled, it's apparent that Logan loved Jean, which carries into X3.

So, for you, it somehow works fine in previous films, but somehow the evolution and continuation of that storyline doesn't work here? Why?

Actually, if I remember (and I do), Logan left the Xmen at the end of the first film, with a promise that he'd return to see Rogue.
He did, but before that, as you will hopefully recall, he joined them. He put on a suit and fought with them. That was the extent of his joining them in X-MEN. X2 evolved that concept further, and X3 evolved it to the point where he accepts his role as a leader with the team, at least for the time being.

It's the second film that develops the story of who he is. He eventually disgards a promise to learn about his past with Stryker in favour of staying with the Xmen and beginning his future.
He never implies that he will stay with them, though. He says he'll take his chances with them. The implication is that he will take his chances with people like them, with the innocent mutants, instead of people like Stryker. There's no proof he's going to stick around any more than he did in X-MEN or X2.

TLS is a retread because no matter how the circumstance have changed, all he has to learn from it all is that he wants to be in the team. Useless.
Except that this is not his arc at all. He has to learn that he wants to be a LEADER on the team. That's his arc in X3.

He made the choice to join the team. He chose them over his own ends. He did this in X2.
I'm aware of that (thoug he also did that in X-MEN), which is why I'm saying its an evolution of his character from X2.

He didn't rise to become a leader. He's never asked to be a leader. He doesn't mentor the kids. The most effective teaching he gives is in the first film with Rogue. He gives a lame speech about being Xmen, imediately after ditching them to seek out Jean. What changed his mind? Nothing. It's bad writing.
He does mentor the kids, because he's right there doing it. In his way. Through COMBAT, and through his assessment of their talent. It's not a great element, but it's there. I'm sorry that you feel his speech is lame. It's not supposed to be terribly profound. It's Logan leading as best he can, with the skills he has.

At the beginning of the film, he was "passing through", but its heavily implied that he's bee there a while. He was planning not to be a leader on the team, that is made fairly obvious.

What changes his mind is what happens with Jean, what happens to Xavier, and the the threat posed by Magneto, which Logan is the first X-Man discover. He takes up a leadership role, because Scott is dead, and because Logan believes in Xaviers dream.

It's not bad writing anymore than anything in this franchise has been bad writing. It's not any more or less forced than suddenly deciding to join the X-Men at the end of X2 after being a loner for much of the film. He has reasons for doing what he does in the film, and its made quite clear why he does what he does.

Furthermore, the things that draw him away from the team in this film are pitiful too. Instead of the lure of his lost memories, it's saving Jean. Fair enough. How does that cause tension with the team exactly? Surely the team are just as interested in confronting Jean, whether she can be saved or not... Nope. The tension is: Storm forbids him from tracking down Jean. Ah okay. That makes sense.
You think its pitiful that he tries to save his friend/former ally/the woman he loves? That he thinks she may have some shot at redemption?

The tension is not there because Storm forbids him from tracking down Jean. The tension is there because Storm realizes that they're going to have to FIGHT Jean. She knows he has feelings for her, and that this will make it difficult to do so. It causes tension for Logan, not the team. The team's already experiencing tension, having lost Scott, Xavier, and more or less Jean.

It's far more typical from his point of view than hers. She's basically Angel in Buffy when he loses his soul.
Which also isn't remotely a "typical" romantic angle. There's nothing typical about trying to save the woman you love, who doesn't even love you back, who has been possessed by a malevolent entity, even if it was subconsciously part of her, and then having to kill her because she can dissolve matter.

The complexities of Jean's struggles are largely glossed over. It's not helped by all the scenes of her standing motionless in the background while other plots move forward either. There's no urgency in her plight because the film switches the threat of Phoenix on-and-off.
The complexities of the struggle are "glossed over" because the struggle is over. At some point, Jean Grey has to succumb to the Dark Phoenix. This happens in two sequences, after the scene with Logan, and as she kills Xavier. By the time she's with the Brotherhood, Dark Phoenix has won, and is firmly in
control of Jean Grey.

And...what does this have to do with me talking about Logan having to kill his lover? I agree with you, but this isn't a point I made. It's one of the weaknesses of the film's third act, but its not a dealbreaker. We see Jean struggle several times throughout the film.

You've invented that arc.
Pyro's role in X3 is an escalation of bold words to deeds. It is not deep character development, but it is character development. Pyro is all talk in the beginning of X3. He's mouthy, he's posing, and he's bragging. And then he becomes about taking action. It's not a great arc, but neither was him being an ass, wanting to be more than human, and joining the Brotherhood at the first opportunity in X2.

He went from threatening violence against Bobby to commiting violence against Bobby. That isn't development. He wasn't reluctant before, he wasn't all words. He commited violent acts throughout the entire film, destroying cure centres, killing prison guards. You're reaching with this, seriously.
I never said he was "reluctant". I said he was all words/talk at first.

He doesn't overtly threaten violence against Bobby as I recall, he points out that he feels that Bobby's mission and his girlfriend are pathetic, and dares Bobby to attack him (because he IS somewhat reluctant to take action). There's a huge difference in determination and intention between these kinds of things, and then escalating to blowing up a cure facility or attacking Bobby and the X-Men with the intent to harm them.

Pyro defends Magneto in the transport. This is his first major action, and a huge difference from what he did last time, where he was basically just showing off recklessly with his power in X2 when cornered.

But he doesn't destroy the cure center until later on in the film. He doesn't actually physically confront Bobby and the X-Men until Alcatraz Island.

If simply joining Magneto's Brotherhood is development, then you'd better believe that progressing from ideology to violent action is as well.

You mean that hokey line "What have.. I done?" that even McKellen couldn't save? That line at the end of the film where he realises that Jean can't be controlled? Where he's supposed to learn something that was absolutely obvious from the moment she obliterated his best friend despite his desperate protests? God this film is awful lol.
Well, that line is the most obvious example, but everything right before that, where Magneto can SEE what he has done as well. Magneto knew about Jean's power. He knew her potential. But he thought he could control her.

What's Magneto supposed to learn from Jean killing Charles? What he learned is this. SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CONTROLLED. Jean killed Charles because he tried to control her. So Magneto, who has learned his lesson, doesn't control her. He says, very clearly in the film, "I want you to be what you are".

His failing is that, as Charles said, Magneto had no idea what she was capable of. No one did, except maybe Charles.

I don't see how Magneto not knowing this makes the film awful. It simply makes Magneto reckless and willing to take risks for his goals, and makes his attempt to use Jean a failed one.

What is this fleshed out evolution you speak of? Please, go on.
I said Dark Phoenix was more fully fleshed out than Phoenix was.

Phoenix in X2 was treated as an evolution of Jean's power, and showed up in a few very brief and somewhat vague sequences before she evolved at the end of the movie. There's only one scene actually dealing with it, and its in the beginning of X2 when she's talking to Scott. Then, there's a scene after it happens, where Xavier basically says Jean was afraid of her power, and that she made a choice. Jean being hesitant about Cerebro was used in X-MEN, but it wasn't exactly a concept that was explored.

Whereas in THE LAST STAND, the Dark Phoenix angle has multiple scenes devoted to exploring the concept, the origin, the various psychological elements behind it, and the impact it has on those around it.

The concept was fleshed out a lot more than Phoenix was in X-MEN and X2. Are you really going to argue that?

When is this "what Charles means to Jean" material then? She appears to wake up... and erm... tells him to stay out of her head... and ... oh yeah.. kills him.
I said "What Jean means to Charles", not "What Charles means to Jean".

Charles' motivation is blurred by his uneven characterisation. He seems petty to Logan, and his bickering with Magneto is understandable yet doesn't carry the tension of his desperation to reign her in. Again, the film fails to make me root for Charles by the time he dies.
There's nothing petty about Charles not wanting to explain himself. The stakes are obvious.

I'd argue that his sparring with Magneto DOES carry the tension of his desperation to reign her in. The psychic fight certainly does, and that's where
the tension should be at its strongest.

I don't care that the film fails to make you root for Charles. I don't want films to be "made" to feel things, I watch films because I enjoy the craft.

That's cussing out in my book. It's a petty and personal attack, and makes the viewer question his intent and wisdom. It's okay for his composure to be lost in times of stress, but it's unbalanced in the film and does a diservice to a great character and later a major loss to the team. He's rapidly cast into doubt and killed, which wastes both interesting ideas by playing them off-together and diminishing both.
Its actually not petty at all. Wolverine is wasting time questioning Xavier's action when he doesn't know the extent of the issue. Xavier is simply saying that he believes he made the right choice, and implying that they have some commonality, as Logan has done things that were unsavory before, too.

The viewer SHOULD be questioning his wisdom. That's the whole point of Xavier's role and that element in this movie.

Xavier's not unbalanced. He never loses his composure in that scene, and only really loses his composure when he can't get through to Jean later on. He says what he says to Wolverine in the sick bay relatively calmly.

And...I don't think you know what cussing out means:

when somebody screams a long string of cuss words at another in the hopes of insulting them. this is a tactic used by dolts lacking the vocabulary to actually belt out a witty insult.

to use profanity; curse; swear.

It also means to reprimand harshly for failing, which is not the context of the scene with Wolverine and Xavier.

Xavier didn't do anything to Logan that can be considered cussing, cursing or harshly reprimanding.

What interesting ideas were wasted now?

"Perception is the enemy of reason."

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