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Old 08-29-2012, 09:45 PM   #20
The Guard
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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Default Re: Joseph Gordon-Levitt as John Blake V - Part 6

So anytime someone makes up a trap, and that person doesn't actually physically kill someone, they aren't to blame for the killing? So now Gordon killed Ra's? Right...
Yes. And yes, though Ra's wouldn't have died if he hadn't damaged the controls. And yes, that's right.

Of course it was to stop the train from reaching the tower, but seeing as he knew the train wouldn't reach the end of the tracks, he knew the demise of Ra's in the train the second he was on.
No, because Batman was initially trying to stop the train short of the tower in the first place, which likely would have led to the train stopping short of where the tracks were blown out. So the train would not have derailed if he was successful in slowing/stopping it in time.

He never said "just in case I can't stop the train, blow the tracks". That was NEVER implied at all. Where can you show me that it was the setup to the plan?
He didn't need to say it. The film shows that this was the plan. I don't need to show you that this was how it was setup. It's not my job to do this its the films. And the film does show this. Batman initially tries to stop the train, and before he does, he very clearly says to Gordon "I may need your help".

This isn't the same as tackling Two Face off a ledge. THAT is cause and effect. He didn't know he was going to kill Two Face, but at the same time, he had to save the kid. On the other hand with Ra's, he knew he was dead the second he told Gordon to blow the tracks. He wasn't trying to stop the train, other than derailing it from its tracks. Even the script spells that out clearly.
Cause and effect is found everywhere, not in select occurrences of things happening. I'm not going to argue this ridiculous "He didn't know he was going to kill Harvey" nonsense again. A rational person understands that when one tackles someone off an upper story ledge that one can seriously injure or kill that person.

No, he didn't know that Ra's was as good as dead all along...Ra's was only likey going to die if Batman couldn't stop the train. Batman didn't know he couldn't stop the train before he tried to do so.

The script doesn't prove anything. For one thing, the script that most people have read is an earlier draft of the film where the final action sequence was pared down and changed to reduce budget/stunts/effects needed, and not the shooting draft. I'm not sure what the shooting draft has in it in these moments. It ultimately doesn't matter, because the script is not the final film. The film can speak for what is in the film, and nothing else.

Ohhhh, so the "underlying context" of it all says something different that what he's actually saying? Kinda like you making up plot points that were never implied in the movie? Gotcha....
Nooooo, the underlying context adds meaning to what he's saying. This is part of how film and literature works.

Lose the sarcasm. Its rude, and its juvenile, and it makes you look desperate.

He clearly said "who said anything about stopping it", which clearly implies, regardless of the situation, that he was never going to stop it. He could have said anything like "I blew the tracks" if he wanted to 'distract' him. Did it work as a distraction? Sure, but he still told us the truth in that sentence.
Yes, he told the truth. Because at that moment, he was no longer trying to stop the train. But he never says anything that can be taken to mean "I never meant to stop the train". Ra's didn't say "That's why you couldn't stop this train". He said "That's why you can't stop this train".

And Batman's actions show that he meant to stop the train.

So the "context" of the line "I may need your help" actually means "backup plan"?
Batman obviously says a bit more to Gordon to plan their move than "Can you drive stick?" We just don't see it because it would lessen the drama to know their plan before it was unveiled onscreen.

The first thing Batman does, the first time he gains the upper hand in the fight against Ra's is to move toward the train controls of the already speeding train. What's he going to do, press the "derail from tracks" button? No. He's trying to stop the train. Ra's figures that out, assaults him and uses his blade to destroy them so Batman can't stop the train.

Nevermind that if all Batman wanted was to derail the train the whole time, and that was his whole plan, then why did Batman even GO ABOARD the train in the first place, since he and The Tumbler could have just blown the tracks from the safety of below?

"Perception is the enemy of reason."


Last edited by The Guard; 08-29-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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