Originally Posted by Wolvieboy17
No, I think on these forums, whenever someone has an opinion that is particularly strong or extreme, if they DON'T back it up with any real reasoning, a lot of the time they're trolling. It's an unfortunate truth on the Hype.
However, I would like to have a discussion about it so Lorus, I'm curious as to your rationale, particularly with shows like Dollhouse that I think are bigger weaknesses of Whedon's.
I'll start with my reasons why I think Avengers was one of his best, because he managed to perfectly bridge the mediums of comic and film by using all the same skills and writing tools he has utilised in his years of comic writing and managed to make it work on screen. He managed to juggle 5 or more big characters, included some great character moments, some of which are that particular characters greatest moments in any non-comic medium as well as delivering an amazing action finale.
Well, I think I should start by again stating that I do think the Avengers is a strong piece of work, so when I call it Whedon's weakest I'm not attempting to demean it. I agree with much of what you say about it, however I think there are parts of the craft which he has more deftly handled elsewhere.
Take the character arcs, they are fairly small and perfectly functional within the film, tying into the overall theme of the film. However, they are weakened somewhat by the fact that they don't get much exploration as it were. Take Natasha's arc: she wrestles with her own self delusion about the morality and clinical nature of her world view before actively deciding to involve herself in the world. This is instigated by her interrogation of Loki but there is little exploration of the idea before she concludes her arc in talking to Hawkeye.
His other works, I think, delve into the evolution of the arcs more thoroughly. Serenity, which is a weaker ensemble piece in the sense of equally developed characters but a stronger overall film, takes more time with Mal's development and explores it to a greater degree. His tv ensemble work obvious does this too, but I hesitate to compare the depth of character work over a season of television to one film.
The subtext is murkier in the Avengers as well. The themes of individualism, collectivism, control and identity are there but they don't quite cohere in my mind because they don't appear to have Whedon's full attention. I find that a bit frustrating because it makes some elements seem a bit disjointed. There seems to be a greater degree of streamlining in his other work, Dollhouse, I feel is very strong in this area.
There are also a few awkward moments of storytelling within the Avengers. To an extent, the audience can be blamed for complaining about Stark's supposed regression or the Hulk's level of control because they have misinterpreted the film, but Whedon also bears some level of responsibility for not expressing himself clearly. I must confess that I feel I only understand Banner's character as I do because Whedon used a very similar device in Astonishing X-Men with Cyclops, where it was better expressed.
I'm possibly rambling a bit but hopefully this can open a dialogue which will allow me to streamline my thoughts.