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Old 11-09-2012, 06:15 AM   #102
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Originally Posted by Mindreaper21 View Post
I've seen all 3 films and I stand by what I say. TDK changed everything. That fact that Bruce was trying find a way to stop being Batman all for Rachel's affection made her the center of the story. He believed that if he had her, his pain would end. Everything else revolved around that. Bruce didn't seem to have a worry in the world about the thing that is supposed to haunt him most, which is the death of his parents. Nearly every decision Bruce made had something to do with Rachel. After TDK he gave up, because after losing Rachel, bringing her killer to justice, and failing to save a man that she cared for as well as deeming him to be his successor, he felt he had nothing left to fight for. Instead of fighting for justice like he swore by, he became selfish...Yes, I did say Rachel never really wanted to be with Bruce, because she always had an excuse and constantly told him that she couldn't be with him unless he changed certain things about himself. She led him astray and was cold to him up until her death.

Even in TDKR, Bruce lashed out at Alfred over Rachel and Alfred didn't come back until Bruce's "funeral". So, Alfred's and Harvey's loss had something to do with Rachel. Like I said though, TDKR is a poor attempt to connect to entirely different stories. Like it or not, Rachel became the core of Bruce's pain, and not his parents. Even Alfred was trying to get Bruce to get over Rachel and find love the whole time. You can look at the Trilogy on the surface with all the villains, Batman fighting for his city, and all the pain he hold's in. Though, if Rachel lived to be in TDKR, I guarantee she would be at the center again. Eventually in the end, he got over Rachel and found a successor, but it took the entire trilogy to get to that point.
Originally Posted by Mindreaper21 View Post
Yes, Bruce was under the assumption that once Gotham didn't need Batman that he and Rachel could be together, because she told him that. So Bruce went out looking for someone to take his place so that it could happen. This became his motivation. Then, The Joker just so happen to get in the way of his plan and cleverly twisted Bruce's life. When Bruce was put in a situation where he had to save either Harvey or Rachel, he chose her. When He realized that Harvey was in the room with the bomb, you could tell that Bruce didn't really want to save him, but he wasn't going to just let him die. After Rachel died, he felt responsible for Harvey for two reasons. Harvey was going to take his place to save the city as well as because he knew that Rachel cared for Harvey. Then Harvey died and he felt that he failed Rachel as well as Gotham. In TDKR, Bruce's motive to be Batman once again had changed. Though you could clearly tell he was still in pain after losing her and he still searched for a successor. I agree that the entire film wasn't about getting over Rachel and, just as you said, it was a big part of the film. Rachel, even after her death, was a huge part of the entire trilogy and it wasn't until it was near the end that he finally started to get over her.
Quoted for truth.

Love these posts. Some smart cookies in here today.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
No, you are not the only one that feels this way. I am an avid fan of the Nolan films and of Batman in general. I loved The Dark Knight. It is my favorite comic book movie to date and is in my opinion one of the greatest movies ever made period (in the top 10, if not, then definitely in the top 20 and in the top 5 movies of the 2000's). I loved Batman Begins as well. It is in my opinion the best superhero origin movie to date as well as one of the best movies ever made (somewhere in the top 50) and in my top 5 favorite comic book movies to date.

On the other hand, I absolutely hated TDKR. It was a mess from start to finish and it shocks me that it was directed by Christopher Nolan. I can write a whole essay on the stupidity behind this movie. In fact, I can write multiple essays. However, I've been arguing and discussing the movie for months now and at this point, I'm sick and tired of repeating myself over and over again.

In a nutshell, TDKR fails for the following reasons:

1. As a stand-alone movie in general, it fails because a lot of scenes contradict other scenes in the movie, there are many plot holes, and a lot of the character motivations make no sense and are underdeveloped.

2. As a sequel to BB and TDK, it fails because it ignores/contradicts many themes, plot points, ideas, character arcs and development that were established in the first two movies. It ignores and contradicts many things from both movies but it specifically contradicts TDK - almost everything in it. I would almost go as far as to say that you shouldn't watch TDKR at all if you watched TDK and loved it and you don't want it ruined for you.

3. As a Batman movie, it fails because many characters do not act like how they're supposed to. Bruce/Batman himself is horribly out of character throughout the movie and a lot of the main messages in the movie are very anti-Batman.

Basically, TDKR is to BB and TDK what The Phantom Menace was to the original SW trilogy but to a much lesser extent (as in TDKR doesn't bastardize BB and TDK as much as TPM bastardized the original film trilogy and Star Wars in general).

Since I don't feel like repeating myself over and over again like I did for the whole past summer, I'll leave you off with this:

It is a podcast a couple of friends of mine did discussing all the issues with the movie and expanding on the basic flaws the movie has that I already mentioned above. I wasn't in the video but we discussed a lot of the stuff they brought up in the podcast before they started recording so they basically speak for me.

Also check out this review:
It is a commentary on the movie. The guy analyzes the movie piece by piece starting with the opening scene up until the ending and exposes all the problems it has and more specifically, all the problems each individual part has. Great commentary IMO.

Feel free to let me know what you think. And although I said I'm sick of listing the flaws the movie has, I am willing to discuss the movie if anyone addresses any specific point my friends talked about in their vid (or any point the guy in the commentary talked about).
Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Thank you. I'm surprised though that someone actually watched the one-hour long video. lol

I share the exact opposite opinion. The first time I saw TDKR in theatres, I thought it was a good movie on its own even though I still held the opinion that it wasn't a good Batman movie or a good sequel. I went to see it a second time hoping my opinion would change but I turned out disliking it even more the second time.

The thing about TDKR is that it addresses a lot of great ideas and themes in each individual scene but the whole movie falls apart when you put those scenes together and when you take them in the context of the film. An easy example would be the scene where Batman first returns and the senior cop in the police car tells the rookie cop "We're in for a show tonight, kid." At first, a fan's reaction to that scene would be something among the lines of "OMG This is a great scene! They took that great scene from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and adapted it in this movie! Good job Nolan!" But when you sit down and think about it, that scene makes no sense in the context of the film. In TDK Returns, everyone knew Batman served as Gotham's hero for years so when that senior cop sees his return, it makes sense that he would slow down the car, get relieved, and tells his rookie partner he is in for a show. In TDK Rises, every cop other than Gordon thinks Batman is a murderer and not a hero so it makes no sense at all for that cop to have the same reaction as the cop in TDK Returns thus that specific moment of the scene falls apart. This is just a small easy example. There are many more examples throughout the film including more major ones.

One good thing I have to say about TDKR is that it is the closest we got to seeing Batman's detective and strategy skills from the comics in a movie. It is also the closest we got to seeing a Goddamn Batman in live-action and what I mean by that is that we almost got a Batman that can do almost anything possible simply because "He's the Goddamn Batman". Too bad that the "Goddamn" aspects of Batman in this movie were very poorly executed (at least in my opinion).

Also, there is another problem that I have with the movie from an adaptation point of view that wasn't brought up in the videos I linked (or at least I don't remember them being brought up). You do not try to make the Batman character in your movie like the retired Batman in The Dark Knight Returns if your movie is a sequel to 2 movies that were all about Batman in his early career as a crimefighter still trying to fully figure out how to operate. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

It's a really darn shame the movie turned out the way it turned out IMO. It had SO much potential with the concepts they used (Bane, Knightfall elements, No Man's Land elements, etc.).
Oh man the awesome posts are just filling this thread.

Awesomeness. Epic posts. Ya nailed why TDKR fails. Gonna listen to your vids later. That hour long one is a doozie I bet. It would take an hour to talk about all of the flaws in Rises.

Originally Posted by Doc Samson View Post
That being said, I do think TDKR stands out from the trilogy in a number of ways, most of them negatively in comparison to the other films, at least to me. Had it been a bit better, I would say this trilogy could've challenged those of other genres as one of the best of all time.
Yup. Rises lets down the side compared to Begins and Knight.

Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
One of the worst parts about TDKR is the underdeveloped relationship between Bruce and Selina (but also Bruce and Miranda as well). It works fine for most of it, and I could buy that after more time they would fall in love and maybe even end up together. But as it stands it doesn't make sense to me that Bruce and Selina live happily ever after in Italy together.
Miranda's was crap and a crap character in general. She has like two quick scenes with Bruce then they have sex. Yeah right, Nolan. Selina was an aces character but yup the development was really lacking and it was too unbelievable to think Bruce faked his death and upped sticks to spend his life with a cat burglar.

Last edited by Fudgie; 11-09-2012 at 06:20 AM.
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