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Old 11-18-2012, 12:09 PM   #64
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
American Maid Re: Jane
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Exactly. Moral Sacrifice and is she willing to do that, and could she be clever enough to do something like what Tony did in a similar circumstance in the beginning of Iron Man 1. I dont know. Smarter people than me need to figure that one out. LOL

RE: Malekith's illusions and Loki

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

I feel like we havent really seen the tip of the iceberg of what Loki can do in the comics, or Thor or Odin for that matter, so it's hard to make a judgement on comparing Loki and Malekith in MCU. What I can say is what they are filming now, and what looks like a lot of magic being used on the part of Malekith, that Malekith is pretty damn powerful, and it would seem more adept with magic than Loki is by the time of Avengers (Malekith is doing it himself, no spear or scepter that I can see)

Jaqua99 RE: King Thor
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Again what I am drawing on is the theme of "moral sacrifice" and that stuff I quoted earlier about patriotism vs nationalism and serving one's country. You do not put a big red bus with "Moral Sacrifice" blazed in big letters across it, and Stan Lee possibly driving the bus, no less, without that being a very very important theme. So, when trying to figure out plot for Thor 2 everyone, definitely think "Moral Sacrifice".

Now I know it is a theme where Thor will often go off and protect Midgard in the comics and he's already been showing doing that. Now how do you suppose "everybody upstairs in space" (to quote Tom) feels about that? It's like having a president that is always flying over to France to check on how France is doing, and to protect them. It's not a good quality to have in a president or a king to be more concerned with another country's welfare. So A LOT of Asgardians may not like this, at all. And these are not perfect people, maybe A LOT of them agree with what Loki tried to do to the Jotuns, maybe A LOT have the opinion that Midgard should be left to it's own fate. I feel confident A LOT will not appreciate Thor going off to protect Midgard when Asgard needs him. This would certainly set up a scenario where Loki is looking better to them as King (and I believe Loki has become King more than once in comics yes?, maybe not quite this way though), and he's already been acknowledged as an heir to the throne by those people, and that he has a right to that throne. (and again, in monarchies here, people do some pretty bad stuff and still wind up on the throne, without people opposing them enough to stop them)

Anyway, back to moral sacrifice, in my scenario Thor is being expected to let Midgard fall for the greater good of Asgard as his moral sacrifice. I think this is most likely scenario. And when he refuses to do this, then while it may be a win for Earth, it is a major loss for Asgard. And the other Asgardians MAY blame him for it, and who knows maybe Loki helps push it in that direction more. I dont know. But again it would be an interesting turn of events and would set up a legit reason for Thor to be on Earth in Avengers 2. Otherwise if he's king that may make him too powerful, and the other heros won't have as much to do, and for that matter he could send his Asgardian army down to fight whatever. So, we need to hold Thor back a bit as far as his power levels are concerned I think, for now at least, due to the worry of making him too poweful when it comes to the Avengers movies.

And maybe, as in the comics Odin is not actually dead. Saved for a surprise in Thor3.

Lastly, if we take a note from Star Wars, the original, as a basis for how a trilogy of movies *should* work, and apply that to Thor 1 -3 (potentially) then follow me here.... In Star Wars 1, the hero is introduced as a sort of willful young man, and he learns some lessons and loses a loved one along the way, but in the end BIG win for the Heros/rebellion, right? Then in Empire Strikes back, the rebels are hit hard, Han is captured and frozen in carbonite and carted off to Jabba, and Luke is expected to make a moral sacrifice by Yoda and Obi Wan to let his friends die, which he cannot accept, and along with his butt kicked, he loses his hand. Then of course we have Return of the Jedi with another big win for the rebels, and the bad guys are defeated, and the villain redeems himself.

Now apply this to Thor. Thor is introduced as a willful, even arrogant, young man, he learns some lessons along the way, loses a loved one along the way, but Earth wins big because the Destroyer is stopped and they now have Thor as it's protector. Thor 2 it would follow that you may see something more similar to what I describe above for Empire Strikes Back. So #2 is not necessarily going to be a good guy totally wins episode, in fact it likely won't, with this in mind. Now in my scenario we have Asgard being hit hard, Odin possibly dying (or Frigga) being parelelled with Han possibly dying and being taken by Boba Fett, and of course Thor has a moral sacrifice that is expected of him, that he cannot accept, and he gets his butt kicked but survives it. And so him losing the throne, or stepping away from it or both, could be paralelled with Luke losing his hand and feeling very defeated in general. Then in Thor 3, well I just hope that we dont have any Ewok's singing.

of course they may not follow this model so closely, but I do think there is a strong chance of this not being a "the hero wins everything again!" episode, especially if they are planning a 3rd Thor and of course more Avengers. The heros have to be defeated sometimes in order to keep things interesting for the audience.

In regards to Malekith dying, I dont know how, assuming it's Kurse. Or maybe they'll save that part of Thor 3, though I doubt that. I do like your scenario of Algrim going back to Hel and Surtur and Hela beefing him up, and sending him back. My only question is how could he not remember Malekith trying to kill him right away. Other than that I like the concept.

Okay, so you know, I am sort of sticking with what I have written for my summary for now with a few adjustments which we've discussed like

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Tyr being the lead man for Hela, and Hela staying behind. And I'm still not sure about how Frigga dies, if she does, or how Stonehenge figures into it, or Alfheim assuming that is used somehow... and there is something else I'm probably forgetting...

Edit: oh, yeah, I would also need to add a scene with Algrim/Kurse and Odin and Frigga (per Adewale tweets). So at the moment I would add in a flashback scene explaining why Malekith is half dead, maybe Teen Thor and Teen Loki are to blame and so a scene with Frigga and Odin, saving the boys from the Dark Elves. Until we get more info about that part of it, or I can fit that into my version some other way. those are the two things I would change about my summary until we get more info.

anyway, I'm spending too much time here! lol! Tis' addictive, verily.

Still very enthusiastic Jaqua99, just have other stuff to do. lol

Plus I dont think I can figure out much more until more leaks, For one thing if other characters show up for the fight scenes they are currently filming then that may blow much of my summary out of the water. So... I'm sitting on my summary for now and waiting to see what else leaks.

Again if anyone wants to give it a try, feel free to copy paste my summary here to save yourself time and then just rework that as you like. (maybe put your changes in bold so we can see the differences more clearly). I'll be curious to see what other visions people have for this.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I understand. But the thing is, you need to take past things into account. Thor DID have a correnation start. And his past. It was always going to be Thor. Yes, assuming Thor sacrifices asgard's need by stayinh on midgard certainly would piss the people above off. No doubt. But here is the issue. First off, I am having trouble understand what you are saying, do you think the entire franchise will END with Loki on the Throne? ( in the comics, Loki ends up on the throne through manipulation and schemes) Or do you think the scenarios of THIS movie will end with Loki on the throne. If that's what you mean, then I agree. That the scenarios of this movie, COULD end with Loki on the throne.

However, you can't deny, that at the end of thor 3, or in the future, Thor WILL get the throne elizah lol.

Also, take into consideration what Loki has done. Him fighting by Odin's side for survival really shouldn't wipe his slate clean. Thor made a poor judgement, a moral sacrifice by abandoning asgard, and they won't be happy about it.

Loki manipulated his way to the throne (he was already king in the mcu don't forget) he tried to kill his brother, the true air, he tried to destroy jotenheim, he tried to take over midgard, and made deals with someone, someone who Odin may think is very dangerous, Thanos. I just don't see them being able to forgive him for ALL that JUST because he is there and thor isn't. For that reason, I really don't think Loki will get the throne AGAIN, he's done too many bad. I am getting that vibe that with all the damage done, the asgardians may percieve Loki as they percieve him in the comics, although he can redeem himself, and do something for the good, they can still never trust him, and will never give him the throne.

Personally, I think it would be better if someone else became king, IF Odin diees, and IF thor's sacrifice affects him, Tyr could become king.

Or if Odin is alive at the end of this, NO DOUBT, he will still be king.

But that is my stance on that. I just don't think all Loki has done can be forgiven, even though thor made this one mistake, Odin is wise, they won't prefer Loki on the throne because of one good deed. I just can't see that happening.

I asked cause I thought you meant that in the end, Loki will be King, and Thor will NEVER be king. It seems inevitible that Thor ultimately will become king when Odin is gone. Hopefully you understand my POV

Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I like the idea of Frigga ruling! In myth, she was the only other one worthy to sit on Odin's throne. (not Loki, not Thor) But Loki on the throne is the juiciest of possibilities.

I agree; Tyr is likely a non-rival to Thor or Loki. I just wanted a chance to make the Chekhov reference
hmmmmmm, not too sure

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I think you guys are thinking too much as Loki fans :P he won't get the throne, he's done far too much bad. Even if thor makes this moral sacrifice, Loki's bad deed will STILL outweigh Thor's by a huge margin. Loki should never be fully trusted by the asgardians again, as he is in the comics, if he makes it to the throne, it should be through manipulation, and scheming, even in the mcu. He's already done far too much bad. He just can't be viewed as a better air than Thor, he's just done too bad. And that is fine, that helps develop loki even deeper

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