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Old 11-18-2012, 02:04 PM   #654
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
That's called having an opinion about art. I've said this before...I'll say it again. I assume that people are intelligent enough to realize that just because something is stated definitively on here...that doesn't mean it's not still just their opinion.


Why would anyone reasonably take that as a personal or direct insult if it's not phrased as such?
But see, I said it "seems" to imply, which is my way of saying that it could be taken that way even if that's not necessarily the intention. For instance, in your original post that I was responding to, I didn't think you were trying to insult anybody, yet I can see why others might find that tone condescending in a more subtle way...because let's face it, this is not a schoolyard and there are rules we have to abide by here. And I know I wouldn't be the first one on here to sense a trace of that in your posts, even if it's totally misplaced. No one likes to feel condescended even if they can't be sure it's the intention, that's just human nature. There are ways to get under people's skin without technically breaking any rules.

That said, I think you're a very intelligent poster whose input I always enjoy reading even if I don't agree with it 100% of the time, so let's get that straight.

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
What I actually was "On a different level or in a different manner". It was a single thought contained in a single sentence, and encompassed both varying opinions and those posters who say things like "Why can't you just enjoy it for what it is". I wasn't just saying "Those who enjoy it on a different level". I made a statement that included both.
Fair enough.

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
And you know what? There are some people who view these films in a more artistic sense, and care more about the structure. But I made no value judgement about viewing a film on a different level. I simply pointed out that it happens.
I know that. Hi, I'm one of those people too.

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
Yes, it could be boiled down to that...if you completely read into what I said, despite the lack of any inference whatsoever about any of that.
You're being a tad oversensitive here, I think.
I'm glad that's the case. You'll have to excuse me, my guard (pun intended) does tend to go up big time when I feel there's even a hint of condescension being thrown into a debate. More of a personal pet peeve of mine, though I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
That's because, from a writing standpoint, there are people who recognize that it's essentially a repeat of what we saw in BATMAN BEGINS. They consider that a creative weakness, and to be not at all brilliant.

While I think Nolan did enough with the concept the second time around that he didn't present it in the exact same manner and there were some interesting thematic possibilities explored, I certainly don't consider it "brilliant". I consider the League of Shadows inclusion in the film to be relatively clever in the sense that it does bring things full circle and further develop some of the parental/legacy themes, but at the same time, its a fairly obvious story point, and fans have been speculating about the return of the League of Shadows and even Bane returning with the League of Shadows since BATMAN BEGINS.
I don't really disagree. The return of the the LOS was one of the first things I speculated about when I was trying to theorize what a potential third film would end up being. I just don't think it being an obvious story point is necessarily a bad thing if it's the most organic story point. I don't think it's "brilliant" in the sense that it took a genius to come up with it, just that it was a very disciplined choice to make when you have the prospect of so many other iconic Bat-villains that the audience would have eaten up. It was the right move, and it was handled sufficiently differently than in Begins.

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
It's not so much about whining about other people's opinions...its this idea that people who see flaws in the film are somehow trying to destroy someone's personal enjoyment of the movie.
There's a select few who are definitely trying to make a bit of a mockery out of the movie. Not you, not The Joker, but there are certainly others who have taken up a more aggressive and antagonistic tone. Power to 'em I say. But it just shouldn't come as a shock when the other side gets riled up and nastier.

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
Except that it's not that simple. While there are gray areas to be sure, there are also objective standards in the movie industry and among writers in general for what constitutes "good" and "bad" writing. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy what's in the movie, but this is what I'm talking about when I say that people who like TDKR seem to have this assumption that this means the writing is good.
I get that. Hey, I've taken Screenwriting 101 like I'm sure a bunch of us on here have (thought I wouldn't consider myself a writer). I just find that a lot of the criticism I've seen here has to do with what themes should have been explored more, etc. That has nothing to do with structure and the type of more objective analysis that one can do on a screenplay. It's more about "this is what the movie should have been." Which is a totally fair line of discussion, but I think it sits squarely in that grey area you're talking about.

And just to show you that I'm on the same page...the lines from Daggett explaining the clean-slate were the most blatant pieces of exposition ever, and to top it off it's exposition on a McGuffin that's extremely cliche and not all that interesting. Didn't hurt my enjoyment of the film whatsoever, because it's just a small patch of story mechanics in what I found to be an engrossing emotional experience.

My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:

Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 11-18-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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