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Old 11-20-2012, 06:55 PM   #48
The Joker
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
Right, I mean I think we're 100% on the same page about the character. I'd say this is just a matter of how you want to define the word "motive". A more abstract motive I think can be distinguished from concrete, tangible ones that follow basic human impulses like revenge, money, etc. The movie itself makes a point of this when Bruce says "we just have to figure out what he's after" and Alfred proceeds to get all tangerine-y on him.
Indeed, but the point behind Alfred's Burma tale is he encountered someone who didn't have a logical motive like money. He had no interest in monetary gain. This is a foreshadowing for the Joker's scene later on when he torches that huge pyramid of cash, much to the horror of the Chechen.

But we're not talking about whether Joker's motives were logical or sane. None of the villains in Nolan's trilogy had that. Their motives were all crazy and illogical. But in the case of Ra's and Joker, I could at least understand why they were doing what they were doing. They had a belief and a philosophy and it's easy to see why it would make sense to someone like them.

Naturally, I agree that he has a very specific goal and agenda, and everything he does in the film is in utter devotion to causing chaos and putting people into impossible moral conundrums to prove a twisted point about humanity. But you have to take into account that he still was going to blow up both of those ferries when his social experiment didn't pan out. He's a man of his word but he's still a bit of a nutjob at the end of the day, heh.
But if you recall that was a condition of his threat when he started that social experiment; "At midnight I blow you all up. If however one of you presses the button I'll let that boat live".

So he was just following through on his threat. The ferries didn't blow each other up so he was going to kill them both.

Agreed. To me this is exactly the same as why it's not hard to imagine why Bane would develop his worldview on western civilization based on what we're shown about his past and upbringing in TDKR. You can get an overall sense of a character without the film spelling it all out.
But Bane's revolution is all hooey. He told Bruce as much in the pit. It was all waffle to feed Gotham false hope to poison their souls. So we never did get a proper insight into Bane and what he believed in like we did with Ra's and Joker.

Though I'd still say The Joker is far more mysterious, and once again- this is a good thing. In general, I always prefer a Joker who is written as more of a mystery. When I first heard that Heath's Joker wasn't going to have an origin story I knew Nolan was on the right track.

It's pure Killing Joke that multiple origin stuff he tells in TDK.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25 View Post
I personally don't understand how someone can legitimately cite a motivation for Bane without involving doing it for Talia in some way. In the movie he states that he is fulfilling Ra's Al Ghul's destiny, yet we are given no reason why he would do this for a man who excommunicated him. Surely if it was about the legacy, the audience should have been given some clue why that legacy was so important to him in the first place. Bane also makes some comments about the rich and people in power, but it is made apparent in that speech to Bruce in the dungeon that he is going to blow up EVERYONE in the city so he has no plan towards that regard. Ra's and the Joker have clear motivations, with what little screentime Ra's had in Begins NO ONE had any problem identifying what his goals were and how they related to his actions in the movie

I don't get why proponents of the movie think we are just randomly picking on TDKR. No one complained about villain motivations in the previous movies, do you guys just think its a coincidence that so many of us didn't buy Bane's motivations in this one?

"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

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