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Old 11-21-2012, 09:51 AM   #72
ThePhantasm
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25 View Post
The bolded is neither shown nor implied in the movie. All thats said is that Bane is excommunicated, whether or not he wanted to be Ra's successor is not mentioned
Shown? No. Implied? Perhaps. As I said, it was an "example" of an alternative hypothesis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25 View Post
I'm puzzled by your argument. Whether or not they were allies or Bane was subservient to her is not a point I have argued. The only point I've debated towards this context is whether the movie CLEARLY shows Bane having any other motive for attacking Bruce/Gotham if not for Talia.
I'm puzzled by your argument. What does it mean "any other motive... if not for Talia?" Obviously his motive comes from Ra's and Talia because he bought into their beliefs about Gotham. But those are his beliefs now just as much as it is their belief. Everyone gets their beliefs from somewhere. So if that's all you mean, well, its such a small point that I'm not sure why bring it up? But if you mean Bane just follows Talia around and only attacks Gotham because she wants to, well then you will have to show me that's the case because that is not "clear."

Here is how the scene goes:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Miranda: Talia. My mother named me Talia before she was killed. The way I would have been killed if not for my protector...Bane. I climbed out of the pit. I found my father and brought him back to exact terrible vengeance. But by that time, the prisoners and doctor had done their work to my friend, my protector. The League took us in, trained us. But my father could not accept Bane.

Miranda: He saw only a monster, whose very existence was a reminder of the hell he'd left his wife to die in. He excommunicated Bane from the League of Shadows. His only crime was that he loved me. I could not forgive my father.

Miranda: Until you murdered him.

Bruce Wayne: He was trying to kill millions of innocent people.

Miranda: Innocent is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work.

Miranda: Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience. You see, it's the slow knife, the knife that takes its time, the knife that waits years without forgetting, then slips quietly between bones.

Miranda: That's the knife that cuts deepest.


Talia's primary motivation was not vengeance but rather the same belief system that drove Ra's to attack Gotham - a belief system that Bane shows throughout the movie that he has embraced wholeheartedly. Revenge against Bruce? That's just some added icing on the cake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25 View Post
If Bane is indeed motivated primarily by his desire to fulfil Ra's AL Ghul's destiny, then the film should have spent more time showing why the legacy was so important to him in the first place and why he felt any loyalty to Ra's/The League of Shadows after they excommunicated him.
Beyond the fact that he spent his life in a warlord's pit in dark suffering that would cause him to hate those who "oppress"? Bane seems like exactly the kind of person who would identify with the League's desire for justice / revenge, just as Bruce initially did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25 View Post
A.) You're wrong and this is all a facade that Bane was using to deflect attention from Talia

B.) You're right, in which case Bane is a poorly written character who wasn't fleshed out enough
No, these are not the only two choices. And B hinges upon your personal definition of what constitutes a poorly written character. But I don't want to get into the whole "if we don't have their motivations explicitly laid out for us in undeniable terms the character is poorly written" debate. As I mentioned before, we didn't have that for the Joker either.

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