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Old 11-21-2012, 09:17 AM   #74
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 263
Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
Shown? No. Implied? Perhaps. As I said, it was an "example" of an alternative hypothesis.
Which is based off of zero evidence presented in the movie

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
I'm puzzled by your argument. What does it mean "any other motive... if not for Talia?" Obviously his motive comes from Ra's and Talia because he bought into their beliefs about Gotham. But those are his beliefs now just as much as it is their belief. Everyone gets their beliefs from somewhere. So if that's all you mean, well, its such a small point that I'm not sure why bring it up? But if you mean Bane just follows Talia around and only attacks Gotham because she wants to, well then you will have to show me that's the case because that is not "clear."

Here is how the scene goes:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Miranda: Talia. My mother named me Talia before she was killed. The way I would have been killed if not for my protector...Bane. I climbed out of the pit. I found my father and brought him back to exact terrible vengeance. But by that time, the prisoners and doctor had done their work to my friend, my protector. The League took us in, trained us. But my father could not accept Bane.

Miranda: He saw only a monster, whose very existence was a reminder of the hell he'd left his wife to die in. He excommunicated Bane from the League of Shadows. His only crime was that he loved me. I could not forgive my father.

Miranda: Until you murdered him.

Bruce Wayne: He was trying to kill millions of innocent people.

Miranda: Innocent is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work.

Miranda: Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience. You see, it's the slow knife, the knife that takes its time, the knife that waits years without forgetting, then slips quietly between bones.

Miranda: That's the knife that cuts deepest.

Talia's primary motivation was not vengeance but rather the same belief system that drove Ra's to attack Gotham - a belief system that Bane shows throughout the movie that he has embraced wholeheartedly. Revenge against Bruce? That's just some added icing on the cake.
Ra's was driven to attack Gotham because he felt it was a corrupt city. Talia's speech to Bruce at the end implies she feels the same way when she says, "Innocence is a strong word to throw around Gotham." Nowhere in the film is it shown that Bane feels Gotham is corrupt or that he has any personal reason to attack Gotham. He does say he is "Gotham's reckoning", but there is no further exposition on why HE HIMSELF feels Gotham is anymore deserving of destruction than any other city in the world. It is easy to extrapolate that Bane has embraced the principles of the LOS, yet he never voices his own personal beliefs throughout the movie. I have no problem identifying why Talia is doing what she is doing, why is there such ambiguity with Bane?

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
Beyond the fact that he spent his life in a warlord's pit in dark suffering that would cause him to hate those who "oppress"?.
And yet none of this is revealed in the film. If he really is someone who hates those who oppress, why would he launch a siege against a city full of civilians? Gotham has 12 million people and he wants to blow them up to bits even though he has no personal beef with them. Bane's feelings towards those who oppress are never revealed in the film this is again an example of you extrapolating

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
Bane seems like exactly the kind of person who would identify with the League's desire for justice / revenge, just as Bruce initially did.
What kind of person is Bane exactly? Where IN THE FILM is it shown that Bane would be more inclined towards the League's philosophy than anyone else?

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
No, these are not the only two choices. And B hinges upon your personal definition of what constitutes a poorly written character. But I don't want to get into the whole "if we don't have their motivations explicitly laid out for us in undeniable terms the character is poorly written" debate. As I mentioned before, we didn't have that for the Joker either.
And yet no one complains about the Joker. Do you think we are just randomly picking on Bane?

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