Originally Posted by American Maid
@LokiDionysos: I can tell have more reading to do to be up to speed on everything you're mentioning. So I apologize that all I can write is, "gee, that sounds good." But what you write nevertheless captures my imagination! I am really enjoying it, even though I can't speak very specifically to any of it. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks American Maid, I've been doing a lot of re-reading myself trying to find ways to combine and represent a lot of the bigger story-lines from things revolving around the Avengers and the characters. Sorry about the length again lol. I think the reason that the marvel cinematic universe has been given the designation 9999999 or something (not sure about the # of nines), will tie into all this stuff about timelines, alternate parts of the multi-verse, Kang(s) and Magus.
Similar to Marvel 616 and the Ultimates universes in many ways. Far removed from the other verses/marvel timelines because things happen differently. Concepts/ideas are slightly altered/combined, Kang/Thanos are the cause of the problems of a couple of the neighboring universes. Things are even more connected to one another, things are merging c.o. Malekith, and Kang's influence over the past, like the "pharaohs of old", bringing everything about similarly. Faster and merged. Like an inevitability that Kang is frustrated he can't avoid but intends to manipulate. Things like Ultron and Ant Man happen out of order and have been incorporated as such. Shield made a lot of mistakes, only "some of them were recent". I believe Ultron was already created at some point in the 80's... In short (or not so short), I think they have a chance on-screen to explore the multi-verse and provide a reason for why some major Avengers/Marvel events are occurring at a quick pace. As well as opening up more explanations for where alternate dimensions actually exist... In the subatomic realms as well as the astronomical and physical realms.
The subatomic is where Hela/magical powers would reside if there's no magic in the MCU. Only science we don't fully understand yet. Malekith isn't necessarily using magic, but he is a sorcerer of reality. Subatomic particles are able to time travel in some small way, and the real-world discovery of the "God particle" opens up a whole lot of things that previously seemed like sci-fi magic. The quantum world & the cosmos are pretty much the only things science has left to explore, short of creating something entirely new. Mandarin's rings aren't powered by magic, I feel they're an ancient form of advanced science that he and AIM don't understand at this point in time
The rings are the source of his power, but the power comes from the past/a non-alien culture that were at war with the Lemurians. Lemurians are sometimes described as flying lizards in real-world myths, they're shape-shifters in some stories. Mandarin has an obsession with flying lizards, ancient myths, and working with/studying multiple cultures and groups/times. He studies past rulers' cultures because he has a connection to them, and will have some slight connection to Immortus the conqueror. Stark Industries and AIM are both interested in downsizing and making things smaller/more accessible. Mandarin learns his lessons from the past but most characters can't view the past. Vision can because of the way he's created... Mandarin AIMS to be an Oracle and teach lessons about the past and future. He knows that "he who controls the past, controls the future" and if he doesn't learn the lessons of past Emperors and myths, then his hidden empire is doomed to repeat them. However, the Mandarin doesn't anticipate Iron Man stopping his Empire before it resurrects the Hydra. He also didn't anticipate the ensuing fight for control among the villains that gives the heroes a further advantage, or that a future Emperor and a mad Titan would come stomping through his plans for an Empire..
Like AIM, he can't see the past directly. He believes Captain America isn't a hero. A myth that is really just advanced science... It infuriates him that Cap returned, he takes it out on a different target first. One who's been a pest to his network for a while and is now affiliated with Shield and Cap. He's infuriated that Shield would cover up Atlantis (on the map in IM2)... Thinks Cap was a lab experiment and not a true hero like Iron Man did, only a myth. Like Atlantis in some ways. Athough Mandarin believes there are some truths to myths, like past leaders and Red Skull did. He believes Captain America was simply a creation of Shield. Not a real hero-because of the way he views Shield and addresses them with his lesson. Mandarin has his own ancient teachings about Atlantis and Lemuria that even the power hungry RedSkull/Zemo/AIM/Hydra don't believe. Mandi doesn't see that Cap volunteered to stop men like him--power hungry conquerors of mankind... Masters of Evil. Luckily, and unluckily, Immortus and Ultron arrive from the future to reveal why they've assembled the masters of Evil. However they end up taken for a ride by Enchantress. Immortus will be important in Thor 3 when the cyclical nature of Ragnarok and marvel universes are explored along with the cyclical nature of the subatomic realms and space/astronomical bodies.
Mandarin knows as a former archaeologist that you have to study patterns to figure out the nature of things sometimes. When things are buried or manipulation is afoot and things are trying to be buried, or getting sucked into or affected by some unseen force. Collapsing in on itself and being obliterated/converted into the inner dimensions, because a doorway is also a part of the whole structure of the house and is subtly affected by those who pass through it over time. Doorways and doorway generators can end up appearing to lose their functionality, much to Thanos's dismay and seemingly against his better judgement. Thinking that the tesseract can't be repaired and passing it off to another group. Only to cause chaos and death while getting it repaired for him in the end. Turns out it wasn't against his better judgement. He let AIM/Sterns have the depleted/broken cube after losing it in Avengers 2 to the Masters of Evil. Thanos has knowledge of the future on his side too, knows the means justify the ends, and wants to make certain sacrifices to move things along faster.
The masters would be a dark prince/king (Loki and.or Malekith I suppose), a dictator/Baron (Red Skull and/or Zemo), emperors/pharaohs of a hidden empire of the past, present, and future (Immortus, Mandarin, Immortus). As well as Enchantress seducing with power, and a hyper intelligent future "Leader" of the world who takes advantage of the world's desperate state in the not-too distant future (future Sterns). There would be others serving as muscle, and Enchantress would be there whispering in the master's ears, enslaving mankind... Ultron also wants to enslave mankind. Dash in a little mad Titan and incredibly powerful beings like Warlock and Odin who are all at odds, and Shield has their work cut out for them. They didn't know it but they were already part of a bigger set of universes. Strange and Warlock can fill us in on lots of it because their powers and origins would both be slightly altered accordingly. While groups like Asgardians and Inhumans have genetic, and bio-chemical links to inner and higher dimensions like Valhalla, that provide much of their powers. People think of these types of beings as magicians or gods because they manipulate matter on such a small scale that the physical result seems like magic when it suddenly appears. Malekith and Loki know how to manipulate matter at will. It takes tremendous will-power, other enhancements, or runic items/devices; incantations & certain vibrations or "spells" that alter reality on a small scale beneath the surface. Creating tremendous effects in the physical world. Causing ripples in the physical expression of reality. But sorcerers and "magicians" like them can do this at will. For the most part Thor needs the hammer, although we have evidence that he doesn't always need the hammer. E.g. he seems to have pre-knowledge about the storm in Thor, and can be seen causing lightning without the Hammer in this movie...through some will-power Thor may be able to eventually generate physical wormholes with the Hammer, and later temporal ones. Something no other time-manipulators of the story are seen to truly master. Unfortunately Thor can't stop time from flowing in this movie so he has to make a sacrifice that's against his morals. He can't be in two places at once like Immortus/The Other. Or Loki and Malekith, in some ways, for that matter... He makes numerous sacrifices, knowing in advance that the ends may justify the means for all the worlds, realms, and dimensions involved.
We could see that the closest thing to the Devil and Hell reside in the subatomic dimensions of the MCU. Hel and some parts of the lower realms. Pym/Janet know how to lead Shield to these spaces... Jane and Selvig are a big asset too. Darcy becomes a detriment to all sides. Hela's realm is powered by people's "souls", their expelled life-energy. That tiny bit of mass that is recorded as energy leaving the body when one dies. This leads Magus/Warlock to have a slightly different perspective than Strange about the nature of things.
Iron Man won't be the connection to GoTG imo. It's not so much about time travel, more so about defining this marvel-verse as a very particular timeline/alternate universe. One where Ragnarok is fast approaching and occurring in slightly different ways. One that's still tied in with the broader multi-verse, because most things will still happen like in the comics. However, things can be altered and changed to fit in with the on-screen universe, keeping the audience on their toes about characters like Nebula and Warlock who play parts in the end of the Infinity Gauntlet story. For this reason and some others, I think Magus and Nebula are in GoTG. The universal truth about why they switched her out relatively early in the process could lead one to see that "the Other" is more important to the story in some way, and things have been altered. This leads me to believe the other is another version of Kang. A back-story could be given to Thanos about Saturn's moon Titan, High evolutionary, and Nebula's deeds in the past that put her at odds with most of the galaxy and Gamora. The Inhumans begin to be set up at this point.
Some characters like Strange, Magus, Warlock, Odin, and Hela appear magical, but Iron Man and Pym determine their powers come from inner dimensions and sub-atomic space. Places like hell in myths are very real and powerful, but exist so far beneath the surface of things, that Pym isn't really worried about Surtur spilling over into the upper realms and dimensions. Even Valhalla could be a dimension that encompasses many. Thor on the other hand is worried about Surtur and Hela way down there. They intend to raise hell on the surface, and in the higher and in-between realms. This is why Midgard is so important for Malekith/Surtur to attempt to enslave at the same time. Strange and Magus both have the ability to alter reality by accessing powers from these hard to access, strange, in-between dimensions and subatomic dimensions powered by the space-time continuum... Loki may have had a key to the space side of things... Strange on the other hand can access other dimensions and do amazing thing by the sheer power of his will, based on the ancient teachings he acquired in Tibet about the nature of the universe/multiverse and other, inner dimensions. The subatomic realms operate in cycles and rotations that are similar to the movements of astronomical bodies, but can operate in strange ways that allow particles like Neutrinos to be in two places at once, or do amazing things. Electrons rotating around protons and things instantly changing their charges/altering their physical make-up...
Altering/enhancing Kurse, and giving AntMan the ability to instantly change size and rearrange his structure on sub-atomic levels in relation to gravity. Powers of tens... Altering himself massively in the physical dimensions. His Pym particles can't alter reality entirely, or create lightning/allow him to travel through time. But they're used to affect and rearrange his physical reality/his body size instantaneously. The atomic and radioactive properties of the gamma rays that Banner was bombarded with, banner's own nature, and the effects of his form of the serum vs. Caps and beta rays change him from what he could become: a version of Captain America. Into what he becomes temporarily... A powerful, monstrously enhanced being that becomes so changed and charged by what is going on beneath the surface.
Red Skull failed to derive some of the benefits from the inner dimensions and ended up permanently looking like a monster and only somewhat a success. He wanted to be a God... Pym can increase his strength incredible degrees simply by increasing his size. Janet and him have their strengths increased and compressed when they shrink down, and can actually lift 10X more for a thing their size, so it's win-win. The serum may have more to do with High Evolutionary, and Erskine and Einstein had partners in Oxford before they booked it to America. Partners who already made it to space with their help, the help of some former Nazi scientists, and those who end up entangled with the Guardians...
Sorry, but that's why I'm posting so much... I'm attempting to explain how "magic" works in the Thor movies, and how Kurse is transformed if "magic" is simply science we don't understand yet. The serum can also be seen as a form of altering someone's atomic structure to produce a desired, enhancing effect. Hela would exist in a subatomic dimension that has unusual connections to the space-time continuum, this means the powers possessing Jane and being tampered with by the Dark Elves are coming from a place further inside reality than some of the smallest classes beneath particles (there are things even smaller than particles making up the quantum world when we look even deeper!). Again, Pym would be the key to all of this, and that could be why things have to be just right in his movie. The power of an Ant in this story against the multiple boots trying to stomp him out, and stop him from existing... Immortus wanted to turn Ultron into his asset, but working with Ultron is not always a good idea. Certain things are inevitable with Ultron and he will always turn against anyone who claims to be his master. That's why he's not really a master of evil. He alone wants to enslave the universe... he even wants to use some people as pawns against Thanos and initiate the age of Ultron. Ultron's empire.
I really think adding things like the negative zone, and the exploration of subatomic particles relating to time, can help Pym's character lead to a somewhat realistic way of approaching time-travel and other dimensions/magic powers. Things, realms, and beings in the inner/sub-atomic realms influence & alter things on the surface of space, bodies, and in the astronomical/physical worlds. Peered into by secret organizations with unlimited backing. Exploring alternate dimensions, & other dimensions/in-between times, but never directly traveling to other times in the films. Making the negative zone a middle of knowwhere type thing, in between established dimensions and the timelines. Other characters would cross from their own times into other movies. Mandarin believes heroes are only a myth, but also believes in some ancient myths like Atlantis. Pym discovers the negative zone and creates a super-villain prison to hold Leader(Sterns) and one of the Kang doubles. A space so close to the subatomic level of space-time that none of the masters can escape it and it exists as its own in-between dimension.
The "time viewer" allows Jane to know that Malekith is coming to Earth, or that something will be up. Going on at the exact university they're working at with stolen aim property relating to Hela/Surtur/the dawn of time and time in general. This gives Heimdell a little time to warn Thor of the goings on. Thor thinks he has more time to try to beat Malekith and the armies in the realms, preventing Malekith from going to Earth... Before Thor chooses to act to go save Jane in advance, Malekith is suddenly drawn there and Thor suddenly gets drawn there too as he realizes he must go there at this point. Thor learns that he may need to sacrifice some things for the greater good, because there isn't enough time to save everyone and he knows what must be stopped... The death of either Odin or Frigga, which remain two future possibilities they're trying to stop throughout the film. Can they stop both from dying? Or is it destined to be one of them in this movie, at this time? Inevitable like Ragnarok. Cyclical like time, because Kang and the Other (as well as Thanos have watched this play out in the 9999998 universe...). Especially if there are alternate realities/times at play behind the true nature of the Marvel universe. A multiverse. With some characters like Red Skull acting like Neutrinos and jumping between times/films, other characters who are in the same place at the same time, e.g. Warlock/his alternate Magus, and The Other/Immortus. I'm using the name Kang for a specific purpose. Avoiding the fact that I think he will only be referred to as Immortus and "The Other". Maybe more.
The way I see it, is that Feige and co are being really smart about all this and making sure they hit as many key plot points from the comics as possible, altering things to combine ideas and characters sometimes, because they only have so much time and so many movies to try to cover decades of material. They're backed by marvel comics and Disney so they can afford to take risks if they know that at least representing the source material in some way will eventually lead to amazing things. Kang would have a much bigger influence over Earth-999999 & could have a different origin that doesn't really bring up much of the Fantastic Four origin. Speculation: They couldn't get any of the rights to Galactus because Fox has the desire to maybe try that again and don't feel they wish to use Immortus in their reboot series. They don't have Shield to help deal with things or the Kang doubles, they may share Surfer/Kang. Marvel doesn't wannna do a Kang invasion storyline and have it be a repeat of Avengers in some ways; so they choose to highlight other aspects of Kang's character and time-travel. Every time Kang travels into the past an alternate time-line, and alternate version of himself is created because of the nature of the universe if travel to the past is possible. According to Hawkings this would bring in ideas about alternate realities... You wouldn't be traveling to the past in your own timeline, you'd be skipping into an alternate past--or returning to an alternate future. According to the theories it's probably only possible if the idea that we live in a multi-verse is true.
This would bring some real world science into it and make time-travel more theoretically possible, less like true magic when it shows up in the story.
Kang has the same problem that we would while trying to travel into the past. Explaining why this Marvel universe is 999999 or whatever... this version of Kang has been up to this for quite some time. He comes from a few dimensions before and around marvel-999999 in part of the timeline/multi-verse. And Kang/Immortus/the Other are acting like the "pharoahs of old" and try to bury a lot of things like Ant Man by manipulating things. Although his plan with Ultron would fail, but resemble an episode from Earth's mightiest heroes. Wow, wrote way too much again.
Thanks for reading this if you made it