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Old 11-23-2012, 01:54 PM   #717
Visceral
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
I would say the question of Gordon knowing Batman's real identity is something most fans/the general audience expected and wanted to be dealt with in the final chapter of Nolan's Batman story. Even if it was to the extent of "Gordon doesn't know Batman's real identity". Didn't you?
Yes but that doesn't mean that the story didn't also demand it. The Dark Knight Trilogy is about heroism, and what that means. In this one line Batman is telling Gordon who he is, while at the same time making a statement heroism, and explaining to Gordon it still doesn't matter who he is. Its a statement that the Batman wasn't created in a bubble. He was influenced by many father figures, like Gordon. The trilogy itself starts with a conversation between Ra's and Batman, a father and son archetype. That conversation continues until the last scene of the Dark Knight Rises.

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Why are they not worth your time? There is so much good discussion that can be had over a bad film, just as much if not more than a great film. And yes, I agree, Shutter Island has great symbolism and character, it's also an immensely well shot film. My point wasn't to argue about the merits of Shutter Island, it was to point out that even the greatest artists don't always get everything right.
I'm saying that there are many films that are hated by the general public, that are full symbolism to me. Films that I think people are just flat out wrong about. If I think a film is ham-handed, I usually don't comment on it because why dwell on something mindless, when there are so many other fulfilling things to meditate on.


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Yes. I agree with this and I wasn't trying to argue otherwise. My problems with TDKR are nearly all concerning the script. Everything else about the production is absolutely top notch. The performances, score and cinematography were some of the best I've seen all year. And yes, the script had a lot about it I liked as well, but in my opinion, it's not at the same caliber as the rest of the production.
Jonathan Nolan is an incredible screenwriter, and the script isn't perfect but I would argue that nearly every scene and character is done with purpose. So I am attacking you because you called a clearly logical, beautiful, and powerful scene that I thought would be obvious to most posters on this board, but my anger goes beyond that. Most posters on this board have no idea why Nolan created the character of Foley, or even try to understand why Nolan believed that he is important to the story. Hopefully I'm making sense here. I am frustrated when people don't think before they post.

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I'm discussing an issue I had with the film and explaining why beyond just "I didn't like it", not nitpicking. This is a discussion thread, and last time I checked, Batman revealing his identity deals with his characterization. Furthermore, if my original comment was so nitpicky, why even ask me to elaborate? Why not just move on? Oh, right, because this is a forum, meant for discussion. And we are discussing an issue with the film which relates to the characterization of its protagonists.
Those were incredibly terrible reasons as to why the scene might be ham-handed. It sounded like nitpick to me.

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Are you even reading my posts? It's both. And yes. That's possible. It's superficial and powerful in the same way those commercials with the sad-eyed puppies and the arms of an angel songs are superficial yet still powerful. A scene can stir emotions in you, that doesn't mean it's logical.
Of course, I am reading your posts. That's another common statement found on the internet. I just disagree with you. I guess that's hard to believe. I've never had emotion evoked in me by something superficial. Most college professors are going to tell you that superficial and powerful are antonyms. You need concede this one.

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Wonderful for you. I'm looking forward to reading them.
thanks I guess.http://forums.superherohype.com/show...+batman+essays
Here on Tuesday, I hope. You can rip it apart or maybe it will change your mind.

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I didn't even think about being or not being attacked, I was merely stating my opinion on the matter. Also, not once did I argue it wasn't a huge and important moment, I argued that it was executed poorly.
Not convinced it was done poorly, sorry.

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Did I say he should have just said "I'm Bruce Wayne"? In the comic page I posted, does Batman ever say "I'm Bruce Wayne"?

Also, how did Batman's power stifle Gotham?
I argue quite a bit about how Batman's power will stifle Gotham in thread I posted, basically The Dent Act leads all of Gotham to revolt even though I might be doing good for Gotham.

Fyodor Dostoevsky's Notes from the Underground centers around a character who lives in a subterranean home, underneath a perfect Utopian socialist society. In the opening monologue, he explains that there is something wrong with him. "There is something wrong with my liver, I should do something about it, but I won't". The story goes on to explain that no matter how perfect the society is, it does not allow for the freedom of the human person. This underground man would rather die than take part in such a society that does not allow for him to make his own mistakes. Much like how Bane seeks vengeance on society's leaders even though technically the Dent Act is saving people from the tyranny of organized crime. Bane does this underground.

This underground man is an inspiration for most of what goes on in the film TDKR. Batman, Bane, the Underground Army, and the Cops are all at one point underground and fighting for freedom. Its a statement on human nature. Human beings are far more complex than any social system they can create. So technically even if Batman truly saves the world, society will eventually not want to be saved.

There is a reason that Batman attaches himself to Catwoman, a common criminal, who hates the Dent Act. Sort of curious, since Joe Chill was a common criminal and was one of the reasons Batman came into being.

If the Dent Act creates such a perfect city without crime, why are kids from St. Swithins still idolizing the Batman? Why are they going underground to join the League of Shadows?

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Did I say the film was crap? Did I say it was complete trash? Why are you comparing me to users like that when all I did was point out a flaw I had with one particular scene? I think TDKR is the ballsiest Batman film that has ever been made, and probably will be made in quite some time, and yes, it has many ideas that deserve to be discussed. That doesn't mean I don't have issues with the execution of the material. Jumping across a rooftop is ballsy, doesn't mean you're gonna land on your feet.
No, you didn't nor did I intend to say that you did. I picked a fight with you because I find an incredible amount of meaning in a scene you called ham-handed. I can handle Talia's death scene being criticized among other things. I'm not done arguing with people on here there are other things I feel are inappropriately being torn apart without good reason or real analysis.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. Blatantly positive? Are you trying to say "well, who wouldn't like that?" If so. Uhm. What? You could also say me liking Joker's magic trick is blatantly positive, that doesn't make it any less awesome of a scene.
I like good strong reasons for as why you like something. When you don't like something why? Why does it go against what you think batman should be? To me this scene showed a tremendous amount of honor, respect and humility on Batman's part. I feel those virtues are important in a hero.

Saying batman was to much like the riddler, comes off completely WTF to me.

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I didn't care if I was or was not going to get a rise out of people. That's not why I posted that I felt the scene was ham-handed. I posted it because that's genuinely how I feel.
I think that is a terrible way to feel. But hey its your opinion man.

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Last edited by Visceral; 11-23-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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