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Old 11-29-2012, 08:53 AM   #346
The Joker
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Originally Posted by axecrazy View Post
Actually, Knox tells us what the rest of the low level mooks think.
The worst possible way to show Batman is a feared presence in Gotham. A throw away line.

In fact, he doesn't have to say it. The opening scene is brilliant because the discussion tells us all the other punks in Gotham are talking about the same thing in hushed voices. A giant bat seems to preying on their kind... and they are spooked because the stories are coming from guys who don't usually fear anything during Gotham's wild nights. The more cynical and loud mooks laugh at the idea... until they meet the Bat for themselves. He 'converts' them and they go out spreading his 'gospel'. Among low level criminals the Bat is the bogeyman... even if they realize he's a guy in a suit. In fact, they probably fear him MORE when they make the realization because it's clear this guy is a wee bit crazy to be doing what he does. He's freak, a psycho who just happens to prey on other psychos instead of the rest of society. Are you scared of this fictional apparition yet?
I think you are strongly over glorifying this scene. One of the punks is scared at the prospect of a Bat because apparently he killed someone called Johnny Gobbs. The other one doesn't believe there is any Bat and Johnny Gobbs killed himself.

That's it. One scared punk.

Yeah, Batman's appearance and scaring the life out of them is great, but it begins and ends there. The so called legend of Batman in the Gotham underworld goes no further than this scene. His mythical status as a Bat creature is erased in an hour by the Joker's men knocking him out and seeing he's just a man in a costume wearing body armor.

So, like duh, yes all the sane mooks are terrified of him. Probably even more so since he put an end to Jack Napier and his gang.

The RTCG are freaks... psychopaths emboldened by the new Lord of the Underworld. And lets be very clear here: just because Penguin thinks he's big enough to take down the Bat doesn't mean it is so.
That's not the point. The fact is he wasn't scared of him. He wasn't intimidated by the so called legend of Batman's status in Gotham. He basically laughs in Batman's face asking him if he actually thinks he stands a chance of winning. In fact the Penguin never even mentions Batman until they first meet nearly an hour into the movie.

Batman retaliates after the Penguin's initial salvo, driving him back to the sewers. Penguin, like Joker before him, goes berserk and tries first kill the children, then tries to level the heart of Gotham City. Batman foils him both times. And when the RTCG finally realize Penguin is in over his head they abandon him in face of the oncoming Shadow of Bat. Batman defeats the Penguin, smashes the RTCG, and all is well again with the Bat-signal in the sky. Burton's Bat gets the job done.
Repeating the events of the movie doesn't alter the fact that Batman was not shown a feared presence in Batman Returns. Nobody is talking about Batman's ability to foil the criminals plans here.

So I don't know what point you're trying to make with this.

Anyone who is dumb enough to challenge him gets their ass handed to them in short order.
That's true of every version of Batman. Batman's fighting ability is not the issue either.

It seems like you're going off on unrelated tangents here.

The wiser mooks scurry into the shadows when they hear the Batmobile coming. And that is the whole point of the Batman persona, not to be some hollow 'symbol' for the masses.
Where did you see any of this in Batman or Batman Returns?

Furthermore, Batman doesn't target the mob first in the Burton movies. He starts small and works his way up to build the legend. But when he hears the police are closing in on the mob's number two guy, he decides to be on site in case he needs to intervene directly in the capture, which he does when Napier tries to kill Gordon. He backs off during a mexican stand-off. But Napier doesn't take the hint or listen to a reasonable Bob -- he kills Eckhardt in full view of the Commissioner of Police. Batman reappears to remind Napier that he is still watching, but Jack doesn't take that hint either and tries to kill Batman. The rest is history. After his resurrection, Joker takes over the underworld and kills any rivals foolish enough to challenge him. So the mob is a non-issue in the Burton films because Joker took care of them early on.

Did you even watch Batman 89? Those are basic story differences obvious to anyone who watches the films.
I'm well aware of all of this. Why are you constantly repeating the events of the movie as though they are a mystery and hard to understand?

Does anything you've said there change the fact that the only criminals you see show any fear of Batman's presence in Gotham in Burton's Batman movies is those two muggers at the beginning of the movie? No.

I'm talking about the impression Batman makes in Burton's films versus the Nolan Trilogy. Burton Batman gets the job done and his stature increases every time he does, whereas Nolan Batman has the stature of squashed hedgehog. As soon as the Joker appears, the criminals in Nolan's movies stop fearing Batman. His mystique and fear factor evaporates because he is only a construct created by Bruce Wayne to hide behind.
I think you have a very different interpretation to what I saw

Batman 1989; He goes from a mythical creature, to a guy in a suit, to the hero of Gotham

Batman Returns; He goes from hero to wanted murderer of the local Christmas tree lighter (which is never rectified)

Second, the criminals in Gotham do NOT stop fearing Batman in TDK. It's just that they fear the Joker even more than him, which is as it should be since the Joker is undeniably a worse creature than Batman is.

The construct serves it's purpose and becomes a statue at the end of the trilogy, with Bruce Wayne going off somewhere to live happily ever after. Now you may think that's great and all, but that's not the core of Batman.
In what way is that not the core of Batman? You've never read a Batman story set in the future where he retired?

In fact, Nolan's movies don't have Batman in them at all. Just a guy called Bruce Wayne who dresses like a bat. A small distinction that makes all the difference in the world...
Is that why DC alumni like Denny O'Neill consider Nolan's Batman the best Batman movies yet?

You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but I can identify more Batman in one of Nolan's movies alone, than I can in both of Burton's movies combined. That's coming from someone who enjoys Burton's movies.

"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 11-30-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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