Originally Posted by Surfer
LokiDionysos, as usual you have a very interesting take on things, but I am not so sure about all of the time travel stuff. It just seems to be getting confusing to me. I am also not sure why characters, that I would generally not consider to be time travelers in the comics, would appear as such in the film. I think it would be better to leave time travel to a character like Kang, and have the knowledge and technology to time travel come from the future, not from present day like you are suggesting. However, maybe thats just me.
I realize it's a bit complicated but if Jan, AIM, and Thanos are all the major connecting veins of Phase 2 it could workout. AIM may have a little more time to be explored in CA2. If they're a resurrected Hydra head, that is.
I think it could be a way to almost reinvent the Ant Man character by rearranging some of his timeline. Adding more importance to him as the one thing stopping Ultron from using time travel like he will in Age of Ultron. Allowing Pym to discover the negative zone much quicker than in the other comics, adding that huge piece to the movies. Ant Man may be the one thing stopping an Age of Ultron from existing in the MCU. If Ultron kills Pym right after he's created, this stops Pym from ever being able to prevent Ultron's plans for the future. Of course, this requires Ultron having some knowledge of time and would be the reason why AIM is working on timetravel (with subatomic particles) and need Pym (from a plot perspective this also ties some things together, Red Skull will return as part of Ultron's masters). Timetravel would be more like what some of the villains want, but only one villain who comes into phase 3 has direct access to it. AIM thinks the subatomic world will lead to time travel and advance this idea to someone Shield has just chased away. Their research was too controversial and Shield wanted to control Pym. Shield took his stuff, which becomes Lang's, but Pym and janet got suckered into working for AIM. Additionally the only reason time-travel is a goal of AIM's is to try to retrieve Red Skull from the 40's and hence his DNA. If Red Skull's coming back we haven't been shown that he traveled time and dimensions yet. He went through a wormhole in the 40's but we have no clue where or when he ended up..
Not spoilers necessarily but more here:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
This is why I keep mentioning that the time travel stuff would be mainly kept to Ant Man/Ultron/Immortus. And it would exist only to lead to places between dimensions and times.
In the comics they've made attempts to fix the infamous wife-beating episode. Sometimes it's suggested that Hank wouldn't have done that if not for Ultron etc.
What concerns me is the one attempt they made to fix this, where an alternate version of Kang manipulates things to make Pym hit Janet, and thus gets him kicked off the Avengers team. The android human torch body was involved in this story.
This wouldn't be exactly the same & he wouldn't strike her in the movies. Time-travel and a time-traveling version of Ultron would lead to their disagreement and the need to escape AIM quickly. Ultimately leading to their separation. Almost like this Marvel verse's version of the fight/him not being an Avenger. Which is what Ultron wants. He wanted to control his future by altering Pym's past. He wanted Pym out of the picture right off the bat. However, Pym ends up escaping to the future and sends Ultron to the 31st century. As they're time traveling to stop/hopefully trap Ultron they get separated and that's how Jan ended up trapped in the present, while Hank is in the middle of knowwhere. Two thirds of the Ant Man movie would be Pym and Jan working on time-travel for AIM in the past, learning to use Pym particles in the process, getting stuck small for a while, controlling the ants, and then becoming big. We'd see Ultron being developed at the beginning, but by the time Pym is big again Ultron is threatening AIM and Janet. They come to the quick decision to time-travel. The realization that Ultron's been doing his job, has almost completed the time-travel research he was created to assist in, and intends to use it to overthrow humanity, dawns on them. But Ultron can only send his consciousness (based on Pyms), because you have to travel through a negative wormhole. Something Pym and Janet can physically do, and Ultron can't, because of the Pym particles. Ultron hasn't learned to alter his own size/particles yet, but controls other technology.
While Pym was working with the Pym particles, controlling the ants etc, Ultron became self-aware and aware of the timeline manipulation that AIM intended (retrieving Red Skull/controlling Mandarin's Empire). Pym stops Ultron by trapping him in the 31st century, and prevents AIM from acquiring time-travel by taking the device out with him. Slips between the cracks. Gets separated from Jan, lost in space and time. Never heard from again, and Lang became the Ant Man for Shield eventually. They had some research from before he left Shield, but little knowledge of their work at AIM.
Some of this idea may be being re-worked for age of Ultron. In which an alternate version of what I just described goes on and leads to Ultron manipulating time and taking Ant Man out of existence before he can become a problem to Ultron's future goals.
Ultron realizes that because of the time-travel tech at AIM in this verse, he can take out Pym as soon as he's created. If he sees that Pym becomes a recurring problem to him, then he can stomp him out and rule all the various timelines, dimensions, and ages that Pym has just partially unlocked before Pym realizes it. Ultron tries to kill off Janet and Hank in the past, asap, AIM won't let them escape the building, so they panic and complete the time travel themselves before Ultron can get the Pym particle implants. Janet takes them and uses them on herself to stop Ultron from being able to time-travel directly. Only his consciousness is sent to the machines in Avengers 2.. well and Vision, a prototype he builds that can alter his density to travel back from the 31st century.
Ultron is Pym's mistake and like the timeline, he needs to fix it. He needs to timetravel out of knowwhere into the timeframe of Avengers 2 or Ultron's attack will succeed. Only Pym knows that this is when Ultron will return in full force (controlling nano-technology and taking advantage of the suits and existing AI). In Avengers 2 Ultron is still only flirted with and was purposely getting himself involved in things to affect Thanos. Ant Man takes care of his personal foe quickly when both of them suddenly show up after Lang dies. Pym begins to explain who he is & the timetravel fully to Shield and the Avengers. He's reunited with Jan, but we don't catch all of what just happened before Thanos becomes a threat again. Meaning Ant Man could come out after Avengers2, and take place in the 80's/ the present with Pym + Lang narrating Shield's view of events.
Janet and Lang introduce us to Pym's powers at the start of the story in Avengers 2 so that further explanation isn't needed when he timetravels in and they're reunited after Jan searching for him for four movies. The funny thing is Ultron would have prevented the world from falling into Thanos's grip but the masters would have been in charge. Ant Man comes in and changes things, but it only makes it so that Thanos can arrive on schedule. Ultron, Immortus, The Other and Thanos become the major players in phase 3. Nebula and Loki still have roles to play. All the other villains (minus Surtur and maybe Hela) are killed or imprisoned during Avengers 2. Loki is killed by Thanos but Hela helps him return during Ragnarok in Thor 3.