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Old 12-12-2012, 03:51 PM   #219
Lorus
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 281
Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Wait, if racially diverse is the extreme... what's the medium?
You're initial post decried a lack of diversity for being people with identical characteristics/jobs etc providing no conflict or variation. Something which nobody was suggesting and indeed isn't seen in the not particularly diverse Avengers film consisting of five white men and a white woman. Then you immediately stepped to ethnic diversity as being a solution without regarding the situation in which a non culturally diverse cast can provide suitable variation in terms of storytelling. Surely you can see how I consider that disingenuous when presenting my argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The only reason I think it extends naturally is because that's what I see time and time again. Look at the X-Men or Avengers. Or any big popular bit of entertainment set in the modern day. Lots of diversity, but the Matrix isn't *about* cultural differences, any more than a story where people from different jobs work together is about their differences, but *all* differences make the story deeper and better.
I haven't seen the Matrix in a while so I can't comment too much on the specifics of it but does Morpheus being black play into the story or theme in any way? Would the film suffer had a white actor played him? See, if you're basic premise is that the Avengers' story is 'deeper and better' because Samuel L Jackson played Fury rather than a white man , I'm afraid I cannot see the argument. Can you explain why in another way perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Now what you're saying is true for the opposite, stories that are about cultural differences and inequality are often nearly all white or all black (or all whatever ethnicity it's about), because that fits the story, which is about exclusion. Mad Men. Roots. Inclusion story -> Inclusion characters. Exclusion story -> Exclusion characters.
You've misinterpreted what I've written. I didn't say that stories about cultural differences or inequality are more ethnically diverse, but that race and gender contribute more heavily to the story. In Mad Men, Don Draper being a white man is a very important to the story and couldn't being changed without altering the story in a significant way. Walter White could well be changed to a black man though, without manipulating the story or themes of Breaking Bad at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
On your example, we're not talking about starring roles, we're talking about inclusion as heroes. Rhodey being included, as an equal superhero no less is an example of diversity enhancing a story. You have two guys, good friends, different as night and day - on top of that, one of them is black and one is white, making them even more different. See how subtle that is? Then they both end up being armored heroes fighting back to back in different colored suits with different weapons. Its a simple little touch that adds a thousand nuances to the story, which is not about race. Black Fury does this same thing to an even higher level with even more nuances.
You've manipulated my example to the point where it's not been addressed to the degree I would have intended. I'll rephrase. I'm writing an Avengers story, an important parallel subplot is based on redemption and I need to include an Iron Man. I could use Rhodey, but Tony fits better for the story being told. If I were told to use both then now I'd have to find a way to make Rhodey's role fit whatever structure I've planned whether he's the best fit or not. My argument is entirely based around having the option to choose the best character for the job based on whatever story is being told. Race/gender often won't come into that unless, as aforementioned the story is directly considering these topics. To swing back to my initial statement, I want Whedon to be able to choose the character that naturally fits into the puzzle, rather than be forced to build the puzzle around a mandated need for whatever is arbitrarily considered 'acceptable' diversity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Now, what is your basis for thinking differences in ethnicity and gender are less nuanced or complex than differences in jobs and clothing?
In a nutshell, they are genetically pre-determined characteristics that are shared identically between millions of people and aren't subject to change. It's entirely cosmetic. In real life, perhaps a person is defined more tangibly by their race/gender but in the context of fictional characters designed to turn together as gears in a larger machine, it's not as frequently relevant because the purpose they serve is twinned to whatever characteristic has suited them to the story. I refer back to Fury in the Avengers because I can make him white, hispanic, gay, a woman, whatever and not alter the character's role in the story. I couldn't change his personality or characterisation without re-writing the script, hence those things are more important.

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