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Old 12-30-2012, 11:28 PM   #78
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Default Re: The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread

Originally Posted by ClarkLuther55 View Post
You are seriously saying that the desire for the biggest gun during a war means matching political philosophy. In total contradiction to everything that was said during the actual movie.

The Empire exists as a military dictatorship at the complete service of the Emperor.

The Separatists want to...separate (self evident by the name) and "secede" (stated onscreen multiple times). They are in the control of a coalition of various greedy business interests, whom Palpatine can only appear to as a hologram.

But oh yeah, wanting a big weapon means they're just the same. You're not even trying to present any logical argument here. As I pointed out before, you're just putting your foot down and repeating yourself, as if insisting harder will convince anyone.

EDIT: BTW, I like how you divide the groups into "good guys" and bad guys. Do you really see things that simplistically? As if there can't be different types of villains with different agendas?
Yes I am because thats what Star Wars is, theres no grey areas with Vader or the Emperor. Lucas's big defense that it's a movie for kids, it's not that deep. And yes, wanting to build something that destorys an entire planet and kills billions is justifiable. The Trade Federation droids mentioned "camp 4" and the Vice Roy orderded Amidala to be "processed" implying they had some time of concentration camps. These aren't people with good intentions.

It's pretty evident they want the Death Star for the same reason the Empire did which is to keep their systems in line.

Do not move the goalposts. You said that kidnapping the leader = "control the galaxy."

Now you backtrack and say that kidnapping the leader is an "attack on the entire nation," which is not the same thing at all. Your words don't match, and they don't support your previous argument that the Separatists wanted to take over everything (which makes their name an oxymoron).
They want to build a Death Star, they have launched an invasion on the Capital, they have taken the sovereign leader hostage. I think that one explains itself.

Because the Jedi are the only thing in Palpatine's way? No wait, you made that up as well.
You just said that the Republic had a lot of power like "the Jedi" and "the ship the Jedi came on". If Palpatine has the army, which was demonstrated to be capable of killing dozens of highly skilled Jedi Masters, then he can take over.

The movies made it quite clear that Chancellor was a weak position when Palpatine took that office, and that the Senate held a lot of power. Palpatine dragged out the war and made himself look like a hero so that the Senators would all love and embrace him, and willingly give him more power. As shown by ANH, Palpatine didn't even take total control and dissolve the Senate until two decades later.
That didn't even make a whole lot of sense either. Do you really think the Senate was like "Okay, let's build a Death Star"?

You can't say that it's "preposterous" that Palpatine needed the support of the people, when the canon movies show exactly that.
Who cares history and common sense show thats not true. Have you ever heard of the Nazi's? Palpatine has a whole sect of people leaving the Republic and threatening it with war, lead by a Jedi. Do what Hitler did and blame the Jedi like the Jews!

[QUOTE]You really think it's better strategy to declare himself God Emperor of everything, after making himself look like a terribly weak and incompetent leader by surrenduring half the Republic (which the Senate can throw him out of office for, see Chancellor Valorum).[QUOTE]

It worked pretty well for Caesar, and he didn't die until he was betrayed by his most trusted friend Brutus...hmmm kind of sounds like what Darth Vader ended up doing? Besides the point you have this idea that he looks "weak" by giving up half the Republic. If he makes some sort of deal with Dookuwho is listening to him then he's not looking weak. He just looks like the guy who has an elite organized expendable military, claiming his power of a government that has militias at best.

You really think that the Clone Army is completely sealed off from all other communications to other Republic leaders (completely contradicted by the movies, which show the Senate and the Jedi commanding various parts of it)
No but they sure didn't have problem killing their Jedi leaders or turning a gun on a member of the Senate.

and that Palpatine can conduct an extended campaign and occupation with them against the Republic, withe EVERYONE against him?
I don't know, did France or Poland really want Hitler to take over? No, but he had an army that made their look like kids with sticks. Fear is huge, of coarse some people will challenge him, but thats made clear with the whole Rebellion thing in the next 3 movies.

EDIT: The Kaminoans clearly indoctrinated the clones to be loyal to the Republic. The Kaminoans ran a legitimate defense business and "had no motive" for evil, as Obi-Wan said himself. The Clone Army was not programmed to destroy and conquer the entire galaxy in defiance of the Republic.
Yeah, thats why they turned on the Jedi in a heart beat and followed all of the now Emperors orders.

This is supposed to be better than most of the Republic loving and willingly submitting themselves to him?
Yeah because it makes a lot more sense and people still challenged him anyway.

And I like how you bring up the Rebellion...who the movies clearly portray as a minority hiding out in a bunch of uninhabited Outer Rim planets.
So? Palpatine has the whole military backing him, and it was made pretty clear the planets were being kept in line by fear. Either way the Rebels would be a minority and hiding in obscure parts of the Galaxy.

Which part said he could approve bills without Senate permission? The Senate gave him permission to create an army.
The part where Jar Jar urged the Senators to give him emergency powers so he could approve the bill instead of waiting for the Senate. The part where the Jedi were worried about if the Chancellor was going to give up his powers after Grievous was dead. Pretty much the whole point of Attack of the Clones.

What is this? "You're refuting everything I say, therefore you know I'm completely right."

That's what you're basically doing. Repeating yourself, going in circles, and dismissing everything that's brought up by others.

Because really, I'm soooo threatened by the guy who thinks "Death Star = matching philosophies on government"

I've already wasted too much time on you.
Do you think the people of the US would be happy if they built a "Death Star?"

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