Thread: Superman Lives!
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:43 AM   #204
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

Originally Posted by Binker View Post
I'm surprised theMan-Bat isn't into MOS. I'am, and it's because of the new blood being injected in the Superman film franchise. Sure, it's Zod, but it's not like they can't do anything new to that character (and Luthor later on), and I can see Nolan/Goyer/Synder turning him (if the "Earth into New Krypton" is true, which seems to be because of Black Zero) into someone who is doing all of this because he wants his home back, maybe because he failed back then and wants to "undo his sins". Plus, there's robots, and a Superman who is so alienated and isolated, and later has to prove himself to the army and a world that doesn't trust him; all of which is relatable and realistic, because that's what would happen if Superman existed. That's new.
To each their own. I like how Tim Burton's Superman Lives was rebooting without focusing on remaking the origin, again, and Zod, again, consumed with overly angsty and dark drama. Man of Steel is looking to be Man of Angst. This quote from David Goyer is very telling, "In the case of Blade, he is acting heroically, but the rest of the world thinks he’s a vigilante, as is the case with Batman. I don’t think I’d ever be good to write Superman because it is the opposite…" [The interviewer says, "He's angst free."] David Goyer says, "Yeah, and I wouldn’t know the angle because I’m so angst ridden, so I wouldn’t know what to do with a character like that."
Goyer explained in his introduction to Geoff Johns' Superman Secret Origin that Geoff Johns' Superman Secret Origin is a big influence on his script. "In which young Clark is told the truth about his heritage. He races out into the night, sobbing, stumbling through the cornfields. Eventually, his foster father, Jonathan, finds him. 'I don’t want to be someone else,' says Clark. 'I don’t want to be different. I want to be Clark Kent. I want to be your son.'" David Goyer says, "Right there in that moment, Geoff contextualized Superman in a way that I’m not sure has ever really been done before. I had an ‘aha’ experience when I read that. For the first time I was able to grasp how lonely Clark must have been when he was growing up. And what a sacrifice Clark must continually make by being Superman. As I write this, I am midway through my first draft of a new Superman screenplay. It’s a task that has stymied many talented filmmakers in the years since Donner’s film. And for all I know, it will end up stymieing me as well. But I’ve got one advantage that the screenwriters who came before me didn’t have– and that’s access to all the wonderful Superman stories written by Geoff Johns– first and foremost being the Secret Origin issues."
Goyer's script reportedly has Clark Kent reluctantly grappling with whether or not he should become Superman.
I certainly don't want an angst ridden "poor me" Clark Kent being reluctant to become Superman. One of the things that audiences disliked about Singer's Superman Returns was the angst ridden, brooding, moping, sad Superman, rather than an upbeat, positive, inspiring Superman. The majesty of Superman was missing. Cavill's Superman is looking even more consumed with angst than Routh's did.

I prefer an upbeat, positive Superman who actually smiles, exudes warmth, confidence, is recognized as a hero and inspires others, as Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster intended.

I see Superman being feared by the general public as an example of going too far in attempts at "realism," and an attempt to create angst in this case, contradictory to the classic Superman mythos. Even in the early comics by creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, Superman was admired by the general public and recognized as a hero.
From Action Comics #1 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

From Action Comics #6 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

From Action Comics #7 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

It makes sense that the majority of the public admire and trust Superman as a hero as traditionally Superman's very public altruistic behavior is established early on. Superman has traditionally publicly used his abilities morally to assist humanity, helping those in need, saving lives in broad daylight, performing acts of charity, and Superman traditionally smiles and is friendly, has a natural Midwestern charm, looks and acts completely human, is outwardly positive, open, doesn't even hide behind a mask, and traditionally gets positive press reports from reporters Clark Kent and Lois Lane. Superman was meant to be a positive role-model, and to be a positive role-model the people must trust in the moral core of Superman.

I prefer to focus on what I enjoy....An uplifting Superman and the fantastical mythic sci-fi elements of Superman are what I enjoy, not an attempt at grounding Superman in dramatic angst in the name of "realism."

I enjoy Tim Burton's Superman Lives because it would have been a wild cosmic sci-fi adventure Superman film with K, Brainiac, the Skull Ship, Menagerie, the LexCorp Luthor, the Plutonian Gnaw Beast, the ShadowCaster, Doomsday, the K-suit, four eyed Lexiac, Brainiac's Beast Brigade, the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders, Courtney Cox as Lois Lane, plus Micheal Keaton's Bruce Wayne back in a cameo, and showing an uplifting Superman dedicated to fighting the never ending battle, and discovering his Kryptonian history, saving the planet, secure and upbeat and he would have worn a costume that's pretty faithful to the traditional costume with the red trunks, yellow belt, etc. Plus it would have featured a new Superman score by Danny Elfman.

Superman fighting giant creatures dates back to Superman #12 (1941) "The Beasts of Luthor" by creator Jerry Siegel where Superman battled a Giant Octopus, a pair of Giant Lions and a Giant Reptile. There were also Giant Ants. Tim Burton loves classic giant monster sci-fi movies like the original King Kong and Ray Harryhausen's The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms and It Came from Beneath the Sea, etc., which also influenced Tim Burton on Superman Lives from a movie making standpoint.

Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Now, what does that say for me and Superman Lives and Flyby; it's not like those were bad movies in the making, but more work had to be done, though a little for one and a little more for the other. What I mean is: I did a quick read on Strick's script, while I read Gilroy's (though it's been a while), and one thing that I noticed was that it seemed both needed each other: one had great ideas, but also had flaws; the other fixed those flaws, but had it's own that the first one didn't have. Which meant, for me, there needed to be a third script that combined the two and kept what was good in both and completely fixed what wasn't. Which is ironic, given that Gilroy was brought in as a script doctor. While Flyby had a much better second draft, still had the Krypton being alive which I wasn't against, but should've been saved for the sequels to that.

Also, and maybe someone has already realized this, but Lives and Flyby didn't really "die"; their influences appeared in Returns, Smallville, and MOS. You can probably figure out what.
Tim Burton's Superman Lives and McG's Superman Flyby did have some influence on those. Kevin Spacey as Luthor was originally Tim Burton's idea for Superman Lives. Henry Cavill as Superman was originally McG's idea for Superman FlyBy. The Superman FlyBy costume appears to have influenced The Man of Steel costume.

Kevin Smith was brought in by Warners to write the Superman Lives script to Jon Peters' specifications in 1996. Batman Returns script doctor Wesley Strick was brought in by Tim Burton to doctor the Kevin Smith script to Burton's specifications in 1997, the Burton/Strick script was finished in July, 1997, but after Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin tanked in June, 1997, Warners decided to put Superman Lives filming on hiatus, Dan Gilroy was eventually brought in by Jon Peters to lower the Superman Lives budget down to try and persuade Warners in 1998, but Warners fear of it flopping was the ultimate reason it wasn't made, Warners had a string of flops because of their poor judgement with The Postman, etc. Warners decided to green light Barry Sonnenfeld's Wild Wild West instead in early 1998 thinking it was a definite hit. Wild Wild West flopped in 1999.

In 2001 and 2002 Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace and Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones had been recent hits for 20th Century Fox and The Matrix had been a hit for Warners in 1999, so Warners favored JJ Abrams/McG's Superman FlyBy project (2001-03) featuring a Krypton that doesn't explode and looks like Tatooine in Star Wars, Superman fights using Matrix-style martial arts and Luthor is in the CIA, can fly and also fights using Matrix-style martial arts, and so on, which would have been essentially just a Star Wars/Matrix rip-off. JJ Abrams script changed way too much Superman mythology. McG wanted Johnny Depp as Luthor, Topher Grace as a gay Jimmy, Selma Blair as Lois and Henry Cavill as Superman. Behold, Superman FlyBy's Tatooine Krypton...

McG's Superman FlyBy was trying to cash in on recent hit movie trends of the time and largely ignoring the Superman mythos.

In my opinion the Wesley Strick script that Tim Burton wanted to film was the best screenplay that came out of the Superman Lives era. The Strick script is void of Jon Peters' ridiculous suggestions of a gay robot, polar bears and Superman never flying and never wearing the traditional costume with the red trunks, etc. at all, and Kevin Smith's too comic-booky, ultra-fanboy, silly wink-wink aspects (Deadshot, L-Ron, Batman, etc.), and tongue-in-cheek moments. In the Burton/Strick script he flies. Superman is about hope, optimism, heroism, fun cheer moments. Strength and compassion. That's Superman. The Burton/Strick Superman Lives script actually has plenty of heroic cheer moments. Superman saves an old lady in a wheelchair from being hit by a bus. Superman saves dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park and Superman comforts a frightened boy ""You're safe now ... Superman says so." Superman saves Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen and Metropolis from Doomsday. Superman saves Lois and Jimmy from being shot by three looters. Superman saves Metropolis from an arsonist. Superman saves a boy from a bully and asks the boy "Shall I walk you home?" Superman cleverly scams Luthor and Brainiac and regains his powers back. Superman destroys the ShadowCaster and defeats Brainiac's Beast Brigade and their rayguns. Superman saves Lois from the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders. Superman defeats Lexiac and the ultra-powerful forcefield and the Skull Ship. Superman rips down the Superman memorial monument with his bare hands, down to the size of a baseball -- then tosses the "ball" to a nearby kid, as a souvenir. Superman makes it clear in the Strick Superman Lives script how his place is here on earth, this is his home, these are his people, he cares for them and he's dedicated to help them, etc. that is faithful and respectful to who Superman is and what he symbolizes. There's also heartfelt romance between Superman and Lois and the love between them is depicted.

The Dan Gilroy script is a restrained, watered-down-lower-budgeted version of the Wesley Strick script. Gilroy's script features less action scenes and cheaper alternatives in action scenes. In the Gilroy script Superman saves dozens of children and Lois's niece in the elevators at Lexcorp and Superman saves a kid from a burning building and Superman saves Lois from Brainiac, instead of Superman saving dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park and Superman saving more people and Superman saving Lois from the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders, etc.

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
I think its possible Cage could have been a great Superman. The problem with Cage is that sometimes he's amazing, and sometimes he's awful. The one thing I'm not convinced about either is his voice... when he speaks there's a cadence that isn't very Superman-esque.
I'm certain Cage would have changed his voice as Superman, and distinguished it from his Clark Kent voice.

He changed his speaking pattern as Big Daddy in Kick-Ass into a Adam West inspired vocal delivery, differing it from his voice as the often soft spoken Damon Macready alter ego.

He's a character actor. He changed his voice as Sailor Ripley in Wild at Heart into an Elvis Presley-style voice and even sings.

In Adaptation he plays two very different men, screenwriter Charlie Kaufman, a meek, shy, soft spoken and intervened man (essentially the Clark Kent persona), and Charlie’s extroverted, boisterous twin brother, Donald Kaufman.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 02-24-2013 at 07:08 AM.
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