Thread: Superman Lives!
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:41 AM   #210
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

Originally Posted by nouan View Post
I'm looking forward to Man Of Steel. Besides, even if he really is moping and pondering if he should be Superman or no, it makes him relatable and sympathetic. And I think it could be human and natural of him to think if he is good for this world or not. And once they get that angst out of the way with this movie, the sequel, should it happen, will most likely have a more upbeat Superman again.
Unlike Spider-Man...

Superman was not intended to be relatable, angst-ridden. Superman is about hope. He was intended to be someone you look up to and cheer for, not someone you relate to. Superman was meant to be better than the rest of us and inspire us to better ourselves. That goes back to the early comics by creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. For example, Action Comics #12 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.

Action Comics #8 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.

With Superman Lives Nicolas Cage wanted to try and inspire children around the world to better themselves. Nicolas Cage said "The death of Superman and his resurrection will be a part of the story, but I have other points that I want to address. I saw it for me as an opportunity to reach a lot of kids around the world and say something positive. I've never really made a movie for children before, but to me, Superman is an opportunity to reach children all around the world, and to say something to them that I believe. I guess I'm trying to take the judgment out of the way kids treat each other. To me, this project is very important because it's going to affect children around the world. What do I want to see happen to children around the world? I can't claim that I'm really going to be able to do this, but at least I can try. Which is if I can maybe get that little boy to stop teasing that little boy because Superman is different. That's my thought process. It's okay to be different because Superman is different. If one child sees that and says 'maybe I'm Superman' then I've done my job."

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
I actually preferred Gilroy's script to Stricks but that's just me. I really liked the first half of Gilroy's script
Seriously? How so? I by far prefer the big budgeted Strick scripted extravaganza.

Strick's script opens with Jor-El fighting Brainiac on Krypton and Kal-El being rocked to Earth as Krypton explodes. I find that far more entertaining than Gilroy's script opening with Superman fighting guys who dumped nuclear fuel rods into a lake.

I don't like Gilroy's script having Clark being hit by a car and not even realizing it, which I regard as a poor attempt at adding humor. I don't like Gilroy's script adding Lois Lane's 10-year-old unnamed niece who was obviously added to make the film more kid-friendly. Gilroy's script adding Brainiac hanging out at a swanky Metropolis nightclub called the Big Bang is ridiculous, obviously added in another attempt to lighten the film and make it more family friendly.

In Strick's script Superman saves dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park. I find that far more entertaining than the Gilroy script replacing that with Superman saving dozens of children and Lois's niece in the elevators at Lexcorp on Lexcop's Kids Day.

In the Strick script Lois is captured in the web of the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders slowly approach her to eat her until Superman can save her, the Gilroy script replaces that with tuxedoed Lexac having dinner on the Skull Ship with Lois and her niece with two goofy looking alien henchmen wearing tuxedos and don't fit them and Superman fights the Snare Beast without Lois in danger. Even K is toy size at the end of the Gilroy script and Superman hands K to Lois' niece and she says, "It's a toy." Warners obviously wanted Superman Lives to be much lighter, more kid-friendly than Strick's script and make it more toyetic.

In his book Burton on Burton, Tim Burton explained, "I was working for a year on script meetings with them, and once you go down that path the script doesn't get better, it becomes committee-ized." I see the result of that in the Dan Gilroy script.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
Man-Bat have you ever read William Wisher's script? I've been reading it currently but the dialogue is awful. Just wondered if you knew anything about this?
I've read it. I agree, awful dialogue and awful alterations to the Superman Lives story in 2000 after Burton and Cage had left the project.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Jor-El is the ruler of Krypton with a crystal sword, rather than a scientist. The "S" is the symbol of Kryptonians ruling clan. Tal-Ar is Krypon's Minister of science. Kal-El is rocked to earth by Mal-Ar a bodyguard of Jor-El's. Many Kryptainians escaped Kryptons destruction in Escape Shuttles. Jimmy Olsen is described as very cutting edge with the wildest suit you've ever scene. Superman is described as wearing a shinning golden "S" shield on his chest as part of his normal suit at the beginning on the script. Superman says things like "Hey guys, you got a minute? Damn right. You can sue his ass." Clark and Lois are naked in the moonlight at Mount Rushmore on-top of Jefferson's head and argue about getting married. "Lexy" Luthor has a dim-witted girlfriend named Kitty. "Lexy" has an internet implant called Lexlink in the necks of his Lexmen henchmen and tries to force everyone in Metropolis to get implanted by outlawing AOL so he can build an e-world empire. Brainiac stabs Superman with a large Kryptonite spear. Brainaic's Skull Ship talks. "Lexy" declares himself the new Mayor and declares Superman's funeral an illegal gathering. K (the Eradicator) and the Fortress of Solitude are replaced with the cliched hooded Scarred Man Mal-Ar, and a black spaceship with Lois there. Mal-Ar Scarred Man strips Superman naked. Mal-Ar explains to Superman that many Kryptonians escaped Kryptons destruction in Escape Shuttles and they live in hiding. Awaiting Kal-El's return to build a new world. The K-suit is replaced by a Kryptonian Household Knight suit of armor with a crystal sword. Mal-Ar dies by diving in front of Superman and getting impaled by Brainiac's Kryponite blade. Superman vengefully kills Brainiac saying it's "especially for what you did to me" and destroys the Skull Ship. Superman and Lois leave the Earth to find the other Kryptonians and build a new world. William Wisher's script changed way too much Superman mythology.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
Also have you read the Batman vs Superman script that Wolfgang Petersen wanted to shoot? If so what's your opinion of that?
The Batman vs. Superman script (2002) by Andrew Kevin Walker and Akiva Goldsman is terrible in my opinion. All the characters are written way out of character, with Batman officially retired. Bruce Wayne getting married to somebody named Elizabeth Miller. Superman is married to Lois Lane but they’re getting divorced. Superman wanders around sadly in his now empty apartment after Lois Lane left him. On Bruce Wayne’s honeymoon, is wife Elizabeth is killed by a bumblebee dart. Clark Kent asks for some time off from work at the Daily Planet over this “thing with Lois.” Clark Kent has sex with Lana Lang, and shows her the rocketship on the Kent farm. Batman fights the Toyman in Gotham. The Joker was dead and was brought back to life by DNA extraction and a billion dollars. Lex Luthor is in prison. Superman mopes in the rain. Batman says, “So you wanna get a beer?” Superman says, “Maybe a soda or something.” Batman replies, “Oh my God, what is it with you?” Terrible script. Colin Farrell was reportedly cast as Batman, with Josh Hartnett as Superman and Wolfgang Petersen excited to film. I'm glad that did not get made.

Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Actually, that's not really the case for me. A realistic Superman doesn't show angst, or much of it, but shows something else that grabs audiences: complexity and depth. Sure, he could be uplifting, but we can't ignore that he is an alien, and how that can be reflected back on us. We always feel like we don't belong, and Superman himself has even admitted (from Geoff Johns' Superman and the Legion of Superheroes) that no matter how much change in his life he experiences or not, he still feels like an outsider. Earth One even took a step further by showing a Clark who didn't know what he wanted to be, but it wasn't a superhero. Which, btw, I can never understand why people dislike that plot point idea; is it because we know the ending? Because someone whom we know becomes something but before he does he wants to become something else, is believable. I can buy that, as anyone else would. Now, MOS is going to show us something new: a guy who is afraid of hurting people around him, so he becomes isolated. That's new and something we've never seen. Besdies, when I realized that, the one thing that came into my mind was this: Superman's "world of cardboard" speech from JLU.

So yeah, these things that Nolan/Goyer/Synder are doing for Superman; it's not to make him dark and angst-ridden, but to give character complexity and depth to make him more believable in our world.
Those quotes from David Goyer say otherwise. He said Superman is so angst free that he'd never be good to write Superman and he wouldn’t know what to do with a character like Superman, until he obviously found a reboot of the origin with angst when he read Geoff Johns' reboot of the Superman origin and Goyer had an "aha" experience when he read that about a sad, lonely, angst-ridden Clark who is reluctant to become Superman.

You didn't read the second draft of Flyby, did you?
I did, I didn't bother to get into that in my post since I prefer to focus on what I actually enjoy. JJ Abrams second draft of Superman Flyby again features a Krypton that doesn't explode (except for a part of it). Jor-El is still the king of Krypton instead of a scientist. Jor-El has an evil Kryptonian brother named Ty-Zor who comes to Earth looking for Superman "Kaaaal-Ellll" like Zod. Ty-Zor has a son named Kata-Zor who is yet another Kryptonian bad guy. Clark meets Lois Lane at a frat party in collage. Lex Luthor is a door to door shoe salesmen who only gains his mastermind knowledge for a Kryptonian touching him and transmitting his Kryptonian knowledge and consciousnesses into Lex Luthor and makes Lex's hair fall out. Jor-El commits suicide. JJ Abrams Superman Flyby changed way too much Superman mythology.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 03-04-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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