Thread: Superman Lives!
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:35 AM   #217
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

Originally Posted by nouan View Post
Sure, but you can't say being relatable hurts his case? And he can be relatable and inspiring at the same time. Actually if he is relatable it's maybe easier to be inspired by Superman. Does it really matter if Superman is a bit more human? Just because he "wasn't intended" to be something doesn't make it a bad thing.
It is a bad thing to me when they alter the characters personality for the sake of trying to create angsty drama. When todays writers portray Superman angst-ridden and feared, then he isn't the uplifting figure is was meant to be, and it becomes difficult to be positively inspired by the character when he isn't portrayed as the positive inspirational figure. Why is bring a character back to it's roots good? To get back closer to what it was meant to be. There is no more "real" version of Superman than the original Golden Age version that was conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, and that Superman was generally positive, confident, also showed a sense of humor and joy. Snyder's Man of Steel looks, to me, like it lacks the fun, the joy of the best Superman material. The smile moments. So far it looks like it lacks the over all sense of fun of the best Superman stuff. Of course none of us have seen Snyder's Man of Steel film yet, we can only judge it by what we've seen so far. This thread is about Burton's Superman Lives. We should get back on topic.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
This basically sums up what I don't like about the Strick script (although he is abit bias in what he says):
I can't take that mocking douchbaggery bashing of the Wesley Strick script like an insult comic seriously. He even mocks Brainiac having a Skull Ship. He takes quotes out of context to where they make no sense. He also claims such things as "Clark is just stunned to find out he's an alien and not just a regular human who can fly and shot heat rays out of his eyes," which is not true at all if you read the script. Have you read the script yourself? If not, I suggest you read the Strick script yourself, form your own opinion. A reasoned review does not start off with HOLY CRAP WTF. I don't go along with the group think mentality. I research things for myself and draw my own conclusions. Many people allow others criticisms make a decision for them, take that criticism to heart and if they do actually go and read it, do very little but play back the criticisms in their head and look for any perceived negatives in the script to reinforce an already established preconception on it. Then (having read it or not) decide that it sucks. Then, since they’ve decided it sucked, they figure it would be a service to spread the negativity, and henceforth, if they know it or not, attempt to create negative preconceptions in anyone who will even half heartedly listen to them. I view it plainly as allowing others to make up your mind for you.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
Am I correct in thinking that they were going to use Gilroy's script for the shoot?
Tim Burton was going to use the Wesley Strick script dated July 1997, but Warners got scared after Schumacher's Batman & Robin bombed so bad in June 1997, so Warners delayed the filming and had many script meetings, hired Dan Gilroy to rewrite and make the film more kid-friendly and toyetic. Jon Peters and Warners felt Gilroy's script was an improvement but Warners still didn't consider it a guaranteed hit. Tim Burton indicates that he didn't feel Gilroy's committee-ized script changes was an improvement. In his book Burton on Burton, Tim Burton explained, "I was working for a year on script meetings with them, and once you go down that path the script doesn't get better, it becomes committee-ized." The Dan Gilroy script is dated February 24, 1998. By April, 1998 Warner Bros. shut down the production of Tim Burton's Superman Lives and green lit Wild Wild West. Tim Burton signed on to direct Sleepy Hollow by June 1998.

Tim Burton said that nothing he was paid was worth what he went through in trying to get the film off the ground. Merchandising, he said, was the sole driving force behind the movie as far as the Powers-that-be were concerned, who after seeing Nicholas Cage in the classic Superman costume said they wanted to lose the red underpants, and instead wanted to swap them for red shorts (like those of a basketball player), they also were happy to keep the red boots as long as they had a lightning bolt down the side.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
I'm currently going to re-read the Gilroy script so ill get back to you on what I liked in it
I look forward to that.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
The worst thing was the dialogue one of the reasons I prefer the Gilroy script.
Tim Burton encourages his actors to improvise their dialogue so a lot of the lines in the script wouldn't have even been in the Superman Lives film. If you look at the Batman and Batman Returns scripts, a lot of the scripted dialogue was changed by the actors improvisations, and most of Batman's scripted dialogue was completely opted by Michael Keaton.

Tim Burton explained on the Batman commentary, "I love working with actors who understand it's really what's in between the lines of the script and all these guys get that. From Beetlejuice, that movie and also Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, I learned that I love actors that are good at improve. I mean, as long as it kept kind of within the spirit and the form of what it is, but real good improvisational actors know that. They find what the character is, the root of what it is, and then you can almost do anything, and I do enjoy that, so I promote it. The real good improvisational actors, it works because they know what the character is and I love doing it, and I've had the opportunity to work with lots of good improvisational actors. Like on Beetlejuice, Micheal (Keaton) was excellent at improve. He comes from improve. Those are the kind of actors I like working with."

Batman Returns script writer Daniel Waters said, "Michael Keaton would go through my script and say, 'I should say less here, I should say less here.' I had so many angry Batman rant speeches, and he's like, 'Batman would never say that. Batman should just say this line right here.'"

Michael Gough said, "Tim very much encouraged me to have ideas about Alfred. 'It's got to be your idea.' Once you've got the idea, you've got a rope to hang on to and then you can go anywhere, and I felt that with Tim that we could go anywhere."

Jack Nicholson said, "There were collaborative ideas on a real level about the material itself. A lot of this movie comes from improvisational inspiration right there actually while your doing it. We work give and take. A lot of what happened in refining the script comes from that kind of fun collaboration."

Robert Wuhl said, "Tim let me play, he gave me that great freedom to let me try things. I'd just suggest things and if I could do them and he'd say, 'Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.' Which was wonderful. In the scene were I walk into the newsroom and the guy shows me the picture of the bat and I say 'What a dick.' Tim loved it. Same thing with 'The curse of the wicker people.' Tim loved it. Another interesting thing is that my character died at the end of the draft. I was suppose to die. Tim said 'Okay, were gonna have him live.'"

Tim Burton's Batman producer Peter Guber echoed Burton's viewpoint, "A script is a blue print, it isn't the Bible, it's a blue print for a movie. It is capable of being changed, and it is changed. Of course actors ad-lib. That's why it's called filmmaking. Your making something. It's the processes that makes the magic."

Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Okay, this is where I'm going to fight you on this.
A fight? Trying to bait people into a fight is against the rules of these boards.

Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Even back then, with Action #1, Superman was suppose to be us: more specifically the meek, outcast kids who no one cared for (even girls), but were actually heroes inside. Over time, Superman became a symbol. We still have that relatability even before MOS: Superman (1978), and yes even I have to admit, Superman II; Byrne, and yes, Lois and Clark; Smallville, yep, and Earth One. And to be very honest: a relatable Superman works. I myself have read "It's Superman!" and I not only found myself relating to Superman, I actually was him. Not even Smallville did that. So the whole "Superman is not suppose to be relatable" thing; you're wrong with that.

Superman was created as a friend of the helpless, defender of the weak and oppressed, but he was not the helpless, weak and oppressed. We are intended to admire him, learn from him, but we are not him. He's an alien from another planet. Superman was not suppose to be us, as conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, we were are not intended to relate to Superman, the super-powered hero from Krypton, but rather to his Clark Kent disguise. He pretended to be one of us as Clark Kent, but he really was not one of us. Look, it's possible to relate to the iconic Superman in some capacity, but he wasn't meant to be a grounded, relatable guy. That was my point. Some contemporary writers try to inject angst into Superman because they realize that as conceived and created, at Superman's core, as David Goyer said, he is angst free. I do not enjoy such an angsty version of Superman. As I said, I prefer to focus on what I actually enjoy. This thread is about Burton's Superman Lives. I advise you to try and get back to the topic of the thread.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 03-01-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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