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Old 03-06-2013, 08:57 AM   #470
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by OutRiddled View Post
I'm sorry, but I have never seen the Joker as some half-assed anarchist/Osama Bin Laden wannabe.
That's not what you got in TDK either. Unless you associate Bin Laden with causing anarchy because he was trying to drive everyone crazy, protecting a masked vigilante because he thinks he's too much fun to lose, taking over the Gotham underworld etc.

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Because I don't see the Joker, all I see are 9/11 parallels. I see a terrorist/anarchist wearing facepaint. I don't see the malicious trickster/clown/mobster that is the original concept for the character.
Then your perception of the character is way off. For instance, what would you say is the Joker's most famous story? The Killing Joke would be the one most would say. What was Joker's goal in that? Drive Gordon crazy to prove everyone is as bad as he is. What did Joker try and do in TDK? Drive Gotham crazy to prove they're all like him deep down.

Joker's obsession with Batman because he thinks he's so much fun is another key trait of the character. Several examples of that shown in that link I showed you, including from infamous Joker stories like The Laughing Fish and A Death in the Family.

Yet somehow you saw Osama Bin Laden. Your version of Osama Bin Laden sounds a lot more interesting than the version I've seen on the News.

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Well I already listed plenty, including showing a panel that was directly copied into frames of film.
All you have listed is a similar Joker card design, a false claim that Nicholson announced he would kill all of Gotham when he didn't, and something about a similar design. The design had several key differences right down to the costume. Joker in Batman #1 didn't have a perma grin. He didn't wear chequered pants. He didn't wear an orange shirt.

So remind me again what this list is you're talking about?

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Like you state later, not all of it was good.
I never said that. I said the campy comics did one off silly gimmicks like the ones I showed you, including "artist" Joker. Heath's Joker didn't use anything like that in his character's persona.

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Showing a dead guy in a chair that he killed with his poison is not a death threat... ok.
Of course it's a death threat. You keep dodging the point. Did the Joker say in his commercial that he would kill Gotham? No. He sold it as a great new product that leaves you looking happy.

Batman #1 Joker went on the air and said he will kill. Like Heath's Joker.

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Yes, he announced that he's poisoning/going to poison Gotham.
No, he didn't.

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You want to nitpick little details too. It doesn't really make much difference. The card is there in both instances.
I haven't nit picked any details. Saying you're giving away a product, and saying you're going to murder people are two different things.

A Joker card is a Joker card. It doesn't make one iota of difference what design of Joker is on it.

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His design in Batman #1 is pretty much the same: purple suit, purple hat, same hair, same white face, purple eyeshadow, laugh lines, etc.
No orange shirt, no chequered pants., no perma smile. Everything else is seen in a million other Joker stories.

So why are you continuously trying to claim this came from Batman #1?

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How many stories did Joker die?
The same number as he did killing Batman's parents.

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Your point? Batman #1 is the blueprint for all future stories with the Joker. Of course it's going to show up again in future stories.
That is my point. What makes you think this came from Batman #1 and not one of those other later stories.

Apart from the proof you've been given by me and others of the blatant similarities of Batman #1 and TDK's Joker, I can give you direct quotes from Nolan that Batman #1 was used as an influence.

Do you want to see them?

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The pretty much used Vicki too, to lure Batman into a trap.
When? The first time the Joker tricked her into meeting at the museum. He had no idea Batman would show up. Second time he went to her apartment in the middle of the day. Third time she happened to show up at the cathedral and Joker took her hostage after he thought Batman was dead in the Batwing.

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They're both mentally disturbed women who dress like clowns (Alicia with clown mask) and follow Joker despite his abuse/throwing acid on face behaviour. That's why I made the connection.
The mardi gras mask Alicia wore was not a clown mask. Her clothing was nothing clown like.

Alicia committed suicide after seeing two brief scenes of her "following" the Joker. You were really stretching that one weren't you.

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I was actually joking
Sure you were.

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but of course there are examples of Joker going after the hero's girl.. he did in The Dark Knight, even: "Hello beautiful"
He did not go after her. He accosted her and terrorized her with a freaky story about he got his scars. That was strictly after she first attracted his attention to her to stop him from hurting Senator Patrick Leahy.

How on earth do you equate that to Joker "going after her" like with Vicki in Batman '89? Or being a ladies man?

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You're saying he has displayed no interest in women, but my point is that he has, but only to terrorise or manipulate or abuse them. Just like he did in Batman '89 and The Dark Knight.
He has no interest in women ROMANTICALLY. Joker in Batman '89 blatantly had a romantic fixation on Vicki.

"She's dating some guy named Wayne"
"She's about to trade up"

Explain to me in detail how that's the same as what Joker did to Rachel in TDK?

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I told you, you're cherry picking what you like and don't like about Batman. This history is part of Batman whether you like it or not.
I'm not cherry picking I'm making a point to you. We're discussing who was closer to the Joker of the comics right? Do you associate Joker in the comics with being a skirt chaser any more than you associate Batman with wearing rainbow costumes?

Think about that then you'll see the silliness of your argument.

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No, I don't think they're key traits but it's not so alien to the character. It all depends on what interpretation they're going for.
Of course it's alien to the character. If it's some one off gimmick that was never done again then it's alien to the character. Penguin as a pirate? Batman wearing rainbow costumes? Joker as a skirt chasing artist lover?

Out of character gimmicks.

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If you ignore that whole "I made you, you made me first", and really the whole last half hour is one epic duel between Batman and Joker (well, most of the movie, really), not just the brief fist fight. It just adds something extra to that whole confrontation.
Ok lets break down this "epic duel"

1. First scene between Batman and Joker is when Batman bursts into the museum, grabs Vicki, and leaves. Very thrilling duel there.
2. Joker dares Batman to meet him at the parade.
3. Joker and Batman finally come face to face in the cathedral and Joker gets the snot beaten out of him for killing Batman's parents.

I must have missed this big epic duel between them. The last half hour was Batman climbing a cathedral, getting beaten up by a random Joker henchman, then beating up Joker.

Is that the big epic duel you're talking about?

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Batman is a standalone movie, it wasn't meant to be part of a multi-part movie series unlike The Dark Knight. It would seem random to just setup his whole parent's murder without it leading somewhere in the plot.
I'm not talking about The Dark Knight. I'm talking about Batman Begins, which is where the flashback to the death of Bruce's parents happened. That's what you decided to compare the two flashbacks scenes for some unknown reason right? So why are you talking about TDK?

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 03-06-2013 at 05:53 PM.
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