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Old 03-06-2013, 08:11 PM   #472
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
That's not what you got in TDK either. Unless you associate Bin Laden with causing anarchy because he was trying to drive everyone crazy, protecting a masked vigilante because he thinks he's too much fun to lose, taking over the Gotham underworld etc.
It's obvious the parallel is there. Batman wiretapping all the phones in Gotham to find Joker? It's like the Patriot Act. Joker = Bin Laden.


Then your perception of the character is way off. For instance, what would you say is the Joker's most famous story? The Killing Joke would be the one most would say. What was Joker's goal in that? Drive Gordon crazy to prove everyone is as bad as he is. What did Joker try and do in TDK? Drive Gotham crazy to prove they're all like him deep down.
His master plan was to ruin Harvey Dent by turning him into a criminal psychopath, and this was supposed to break the spirit of Gotham. Honestly, I find a lot of flaws in that.

And the 'social experiment' was basically to prove that people would murder others for self-preservation. I don't see how that proves Joker's point that "deep down, everyone is like him".

Joker's obsession with Batman because he thinks he's so much fun is another key trait of the character. Several examples of that shown in that link I showed you, including from infamous Joker stories like The Laughing Fish and A Death in the Family.
I wouldn't call it a 'key trait', though.

Yet somehow you saw Osama Bin Laden. Your version of Osama Bin Laden sounds a lot more interesting than the version I've seen on the News.
It was obviously trying to reflect current events. Like I mentioned, Batman wiretapping all the phones, was obviously a reflection of the Patriot Act.

All you have listed is a similar Joker card design, a false claim that Nicholson announced he would kill all of Gotham when he didn't, and something about a similar design. The design had several key differences right down to the costume. Joker in Batman #1 didn't have a perma grin. He didn't wear chequered pants. He didn't wear an orange shirt.

So remind me again what this list is you're talking about?
Now you're nitpicking. I don't remember seeing him start out with a glasgow smile, runny makeup and long greasy hair.
I never said that. I said the campy comics did one off silly gimmicks like the ones I showed you, including "artist" Joker. Heath's Joker didn't use anything like that in his character's persona.
That's because the character wasn't always 'dark' and 'serious'. That's just one facet of the character that has been seen in more recent comics.

Of course it's a death threat. You keep dodging the point. Did the Joker say in his commercial that he would kill Gotham? No. He sold it as a great new product that leaves you looking happy.
..and dead.

Batman #1 Joker went on the air and said he will kill. Like Heath's Joker.
I'm not denying that, but so did Nicholson.

No, he didn't.
Ok, he was really advertising a "great new product that leaves you looking happy".

I haven't nit picked any details. Saying you're giving away a product, and saying you're going to murder people are two different things.
You just aren't getting it, are you?

A Joker card is a Joker card. It doesn't make one iota of difference what design of Joker is on it.
True, but does it also matter how it is specifically used as well?

No orange shirt, no chequered pants., no perma smile. Everything else is seen in a million other Joker stories.

So why are you continuously trying to claim this came from Batman #1?
It's much closer than runny makeup, long greasy hair and glasgow smile Joker. Visually, Nicholson is much closer to the original appearance in Batman #1.

The same number as he did killing Batman's parents.
Bob Kane mentioned that having the Joker be the killer of Batman's parents was a great idea, and that he wish he had thought of it. But by that time, he had already done Batman's origin, and that was before the first issue with the Joker (Detective Comics #33 November 1939 - Joker first appeared in 1940).

That is my point. What makes you think this came from Batman #1 and not one of those other later stories.

Apart from the proof you've been given by me and others of the blatant similarities of Batman #1 and TDK's Joker, I can give you direct quotes from Nolan that Batman #1 was used as an influence.

Do you want to see them?
I know that Tim Burton was given a copy of Batman #1 so that he could base part of it on that. That's why that screenshot of the Joker card is almost exactly like the comic panel in Batman #1. If that's not proof, I don't know what is.

I already know that Batman #1 was an influence on The Dark Knight, I'm not trying to prove against that.

When? The first time the Joker tricked her into meeting at the museum. He had no idea Batman would show up. Second time he went to her apartment in the middle of the day. Third time she happened to show up at the cathedral and Joker took her hostage after he thought Batman was dead in the Batwing.
Joker's motives towards Vicki are not made clear in the film. But I don't think we're supposed to know, anyway, because Joker is Joker. Like I said, if he fancied her, why did he throw acid at her face? Why did he try and throw her off a building? You're reading too much into it.

The mardi gras mask Alicia wore was not a clown mask. Her clothing was nothing clown like.

Alicia committed suicide after seeing two brief scenes of her "following" the Joker. You were really stretching that one weren't you.
Ok, we'll agree to disagree.

Sure you were.

He did not go after her. He accosted her and terrorized her with a freaky story about he got his scars. That was strictly after she first attracted his attention to her to stop him from hurting Senator Patrick Leahy.

How on earth do you equate that to Joker "going after her" like with Vicki in Batman '89? Or being a ladies man?
Joker didn't fancy Vicki. As I said, he tried to burn her with acid and tried to throw her off a building. It's just the villain threatening the hero's girl. The 'damsel in distress'. The same concept as Ledger's Joker going after Rachel, just done slightly differently.


He has no interest in women ROMANTICALLY. Joker in Batman '89 blatantly had a romantic fixation on Vicki.

"She's dating some guy named Wayne"
"She's about to trade up"

Explain to me in detail how that's the same as what Joker did to Rachel in TDK?
Sure, man, that's why he tried to burn her with acid and throw her off a building. That's Joker's way of romance.

Ever even think that he was actually joking. But surely someone called The Joker would never make a joke like that.

I'm not cherry picking I'm making a point to you. We're discussing who was closer to the Joker of the comics right? Do you associate Joker in the comics with being a skirt chaser any more than you associate Batman with wearing rainbow costumes?

Think about that then you'll see the silliness of your argument.
Joker was married in The Killing Joke, wasn't he? Before he became Joker?

But Joker in '89 wasn't a 'skirt chaser'. He was the supervillain threatening the hero's girl, as has been seen countless times in movies, even in The Dark Knight. You're acting like it is some love triangle, with Joker putting the moves on Vicki. Yeah, trying to burn her with acid and throw her off a building.

Of course it's alien to the character. If it's some one off gimmick that was never done again then it's alien to the character. Penguin as a pirate? Batman wearing rainbow costumes? Joker as a skirt chasing artist lover?

Out of character gimmicks.
That was the reality for a certain period of the character's history right up to the 60s, including the tv show. Hell, the Joker even went surfing in that one. So much so, that until '89, most people thought of Batman as being a campy character. So, it wasn't a "one off" at all.

Ok lets break down this "epic duel"

1. First scene between Batman and Joker is when Batman bursts into the museum, grabs Vicki, and leaves. Very thrilling duel there.
2. Joker dares Batman to meet him at the parade.
3. Joker and Batman finally come face to face in the cathedral and Joker gets the snot beaten out of him for killing Batman's parents.

I must have missed this big epic duel between them. The last half hour was Batman climbing a cathedral, getting beaten up by a random Joker henchman, then beating up Joker.

Is that the big epic duel you're talking about?
From Batman's first encounter with Jack Napier, the entire movie is basically Batman VS The Joker. It all climaxes with the parade/cathedral.

That doesn't mean it's all physical, one on one, but other stuff like Batman foiling Joker's plans and such.

I'm not talking about The Dark Knight. I'm talking about Batman Begins, which is where the flashback to the death of Bruce's parents happened. That's what you decided to compare the two flashbacks scenes for some unknown reason right? So why are you talking about TDK?
That's a mistake on my part, I meant to say Batman Begins.

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