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Old 03-06-2013, 09:15 PM   #474
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by OutRiddled View Post
It's obvious the parallel is there. Batman wiretapping all the phones in Gotham to find Joker? It's like the Patriot Act. Joker = Bin Laden.
No, Joker = Bin Laden in your mind. I say that as a Batman fan who is perplexed why you would think Batman tracking villains using tech is something new. Batman tracking the Joker's whereabouts is something taken straight from the comics. As if you've never heard of Batman using tracking technology to locate criminals.

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His master plan was to ruin Harvey Dent by turning him into a criminal psychopath, and this was supposed to break the spirit of Gotham.
"Tell your men they work for me now. This my city"

"You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you. Nooooo, you need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey"

His plan was to take over the Gotham underworld and break Gotham's soul. Kill the city's hope. All from the comics, too.

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Honestly, I find a lot of flaws in that.
That's your loss. It's ten times more valid than say the Joker being able to announce on public TV to Commissioner Gordon, the Mayor, Harvey Dent and the rest of Gotham that he'll be at the parade at midnight and not have one single Cop waiting to arrest him when he gets there.

Now that's flawed writing.

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And the 'social experiment' was basically to prove that people would murder others for self-preservation. I don't see how that proves Joker's point that "deep down, everyone is like him".
That should be obvious. " See their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. I'll show ya. When the chips are down these civilized people they'll eat each other".

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I wouldn't call it a 'key trait', though.
It's been done so many times that it's become one.

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It was obviously trying to reflect current events. Like I mentioned, Batman wiretapping all the phones, was obviously a reflection of the Patriot Act.
As I said to you, that's just your false perception of it. Batman's been tracking criminals with tracking technology for decades. Why is him using it to find Joker suddenly a Patriot Act thing?

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Now you're nitpicking. I don't remember seeing him start out with a glasgow smile, runny makeup and long greasy hair.
That's right, he didn't. Hence why I challenge you to show where I said Joker's physical appearance was based on Batman #1. I never did. You're the one who made the claim Nicholson's was.

I'm still waiting to see your list of exclusive Batman #1 influences.

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That's because the character wasn't always 'dark' and 'serious'. That's just one facet of the character that has been seen in more recent comics.
That's nothing to do with it. The point, which you are dodging is that it was a one off campy gimmick like a million other silly one off gimmicks they did back in those campy comic book days.

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and dead.
Which he never mentioned. Not once.

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I'm not denying that, but so did Nicholson.
No, he didn't. Quote me the dialogue where he said that.

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Ok, he was really advertising a "great new product that leaves you looking happy".
Exactly.

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You just aren't getting it, are you?
I get it more than you do apparently.

"Uh oh, he don't look happy. He's been using brand X. But with this new improved Joker brand I get a grin again and again"

"If you want order in Gotham, Batman must take off his mask and turn himself in. Every day he doesn't people will die. Starting tonight. I'm a man of my word. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

"Tonight I will kill Henry Claridge. The Joker has spoken"

Who's quote looks out of place? Yep Nicholson's.

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True, but does it also matter how it is specifically used as well?
Yes, if you're making a claim it was influenced by Batman #1. Holding up a Joker card is not from Batman #1, but leaving them at the scenes of crimes and on victim's bodies etc is from Batman #1.

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It's much closer than runny makeup, long greasy hair and glasgow smile Joker. Visually, Nicholson is much closer to the original appearance in Batman #1.
Costume wise, no. Facially yes, minus the perma grin. But as I already said I never once claimed any visual appearance was based off Batman #1. You did with Nicholson. You're wrong.

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Bob Kane mentioned that having the Joker be the killer of Batman's parents was a great idea, and that he wish he had thought of it. But by that time, he had already done Batman's origin, and that was before the first issue with the Joker (Detective Comics #33 November 1939 - Joker first appeared in 1940).
Playing the Bob Kane card again. Bob Kane's word is worth less than nothing. The man was a plagiarist who stole all the creative credit from Bill Finger. Google this if you doubt me. It's infamous. It's actually called 'The haunting of Robert Kane' because it's hung over him like a dark cloud for years.

You quote him like he was some great authority on what's good. If you want to think that way then you must agree with him that Val Kilmer was the best Batman. Better than Keaton.

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I know that Tim Burton was given a copy of Batman #1 so that he could base part of it on that.
You know this how? Show me proof please.

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That's why that screenshot of the Joker card is almost exactly like the comic panel in Batman #1. If that's not proof, I don't know what is.
How about because that was the standard Joker card symbol in the comics. Batman has one hanging in his Batcave. It's even in The Killing Joke, too.

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Joker's motives towards Vicki are not made clear in the film.
Joker's motives towards Vicki are made clear as crystal:

Bob: "She's dating some guy named Wayne"
Joker: "She's about to trade up"

Joker: "We were having dinner. I was a man doing well with a beautiful woman"

Joker: "It's though we were made for each other. Beauty and the Beast"

He gives her flowers as a gift. He has their conversation by candlelight in the museum with romantic music playing on the radio etc. He was as subtle as a sledgehammer about his romantic intentions.

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Like I said, if he fancied her, why did he throw acid at her face?
"Oh you're beautiful in an old fashioned kind of way. But I'm sure we can make you more today".

Like he did with Alicia.

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Why did he try and throw her off a building?
Because she screwed him over by distracting him by pretending to return his affections so Batman could sneak up on him and beat the hell out of him.

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You're reading too much into it.
No, I'm just seeing the obvious. You incredibly have somehow missed it, and you claim to be a fan of the movie, too.

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Joker didn't fancy Vicki.
Bob: "She's dating some guy named Wayne"
Joker: "She's about to trade up"

Joker: "We were having dinner. I was a man doing well with a beautiful woman"

Joker: "It's though we were made for each other. Beauty and the Beast"

He gives her flowers as a gift. He has their conversation by candlelight in the museum with romantic music playing on the radio etc. He was as subtle as a sledgehammer about his romantic intentions.

Yeah, all comic book villains treat the damsels in distress that way lol.

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As I said, he tried to burn her with acid and tried to throw her off a building. It's just the villain threatening the hero's girl. The 'damsel in distress'. The same concept as Ledger's Joker going after Rachel, just done slightly differently.
Name me one scene where Joker tries to seduce Rachel by giving her gifts, arranging candlelight discussions with romantic music playing, seeking her out at her apartment because he's upset she walked out on their romantic dinner with someone else, says they were made for each other etc.

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Sure, man, that's why he tried to burn her with acid and throw her off a building. That's Joker's way of romance.
And you accuse me of cherry picking. You ignore all the other romantic affections he showed towards her and focus on his two violent acts towards her.

I've explained these already.

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Ever even think that he was actually joking. But surely someone called The Joker would never make a joke like that.
When he follows it up with a candlelit dinner and soft romantic music playing and the plethora of other things I've already listed, it's blatantly obvious he wasn't joking.

You must be the one having the joke if you're trying to suggest otherwise.

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Joker was married in The Killing Joke, wasn't he? Before he became Joker?
Yes.....and?

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But Joker in '89 wasn't a 'skirt chaser'. He was the supervillain threatening the hero's girl, as has been seen countless times in movies, even in The Dark Knight. You're acting like it is some love triangle, with Joker putting the moves on Vicki. Yeah, trying to burn her with acid and throw her off a building.
I've never seen a supposed fan of a movie misconstrue something as straight forward as this. It's actually shocking.

I'm seriously wondering if you're just making this up now to try and save face. Do you see all other villains in comic book movies treat the hero's girl like the way Joker did with candlelit dinners, romantic music, flowers, and repetitive lines about how they belong together, how beautiful she is, how she's going to trade up dating someone for him etc?

Honestly stop talking nonsense here.

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That was the reality for a certain period of the character's history right up to the 60s, including the tv show.
Yes, the TV show was campy so naturally they adapted all of these silly campy gimmicks from the campy comics.

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Hell, the Joker even went surfing in that one. So much so, that until '89, most people thought of Batman as being a campy character. So, it wasn't a "one off" at all.
Wrong. The public perception was Batman was campy, because they only knew him from the TV show. Batman fans who were reading the comics knew full well Batman wasn't a campy character, and didn't start off that way, and had not been that way since 1970.

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From Batman's first encounter with Jack Napier, the entire movie is basically Batman VS The Joker. It all climaxes with the parade/cathedral.
So you say, but you neglect to mention where this big rivalry is. They share ONE proper scene together in the whole movie as Batman and Joker, and it's just Batman beating him up for killing his parents. Before this, there's just Joker trying to poison Gotham, a scheme Batman foils within 15 minutes of it being initiated without breaking a sweat. He just hands Vicki a ready made file with all the answers. That's that. Smilex scheme foiled.

Boring.

Then he finds out Joker killed his parents, goes to the parade, and swipes his balloons, then follows him up a church tower and beats him up.

I struggle to understand how you see this as an epic rivalry.

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That's a mistake on my part, I meant to say Batman Begins.
Alright, then Batman Begins was never intended to be part of a series either. It was never written or made with that intention.

Yet both Batman '89 and Begins got sequels 3 years later after their release. So what's your point?

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 03-07-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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