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Old 03-08-2013, 10:23 PM   #161
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
1. most of the stuff wasn't really important anymore since the Bronze Age started
So what are you complaining for?

2. some stories have bad writing? Some puns here and there? LOL, Byrne's run is about 50% average, 20% good and 30% total ****.
Again, that's purely your opinions, not facts.

3. Luthor didn't hate Superman because he made him bald. In fact, if they had fully integrated Maggin's Luthor into the comics he would have been the best Luthor ever.
Well, the comics didn't integrate Elliot S Maggin's Lex Luthor from the novels Last Son of Krypton (1978) and Miracle Monday (1981). The Silver Age/Bronze Age comics Earth-One version of Lex Luthor showed his anger at Superboy/Superman for making him bald and destroying his experiment.

Better than Byrne's non-sense Luthor who is just a pathetic dumb being whose actions make no ****ing sense.
It's pretty obvious that Byrne's Luthor hates Superman because his powers are viewed as a threat to egotistical Luthor, and Superman actually arrested Luthor, humiliating him. Superman is one person in Metropolis that Luthor can't control.

The original Golden Age Luthor by Jerry Siegel was a corrupt supergenuis red headed greedy mastermind that Superman met as an adult and hated Superman because he's powers were a threat. John Byrne's The Man of Steel was a return to that concept. This Luthor was not so easily defeated like the Silver Age/Bronze Age Lex. Luthor as the richest man in Metropolis made Superman look like he wasn't perfect or living in a perfect world. I'm glad Superman couldn't legally keep him behind bars. It created tension, created a struggle to have Luthor actually hold his own against one of the most powerful men in the universe, despite having no actual Superhuman powers of his own physically. His ability to exist above the law made things very difficult for Superman, and it brought some reality to Superman, some relevance, showing that the system is flawed and doesn't always work. Superman originally was a champion of the common man versus corruption of the law at the highest level. And it also reminded me of Jack Kirby's sinister wealthy Morgan Edge, the president of the Galaxy Broadcasting System, whom was Superman's new boss whom Superman couldn't arrest and whom was a servant of Darkseid connected to the Apokolips-sponsored crime organization Intergang in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen by Jack Kirby.

4. Clark Kent being a mild-mannered disguise is how Superman is meant to be. I know you hate this but it's just how it is and you cannot change it.
Friedrich Thorben: "But you changed the classic formula of Superman being the real person and Clark Kent being a disguise. That's a pretty big change."

John Byrne: "Only if you assume his life began the day he put on the costume."

Clark Kent is the "real" identity in the sense that he had been Clark Kent since he was a baby living in Smallville. When he decided to take a public crime fighting role, Clark, with the help of Ma Kent, invented the identity of the costumed superhero, Superman, with an "S" on his chest, etc.

And Clark also invented a new Clark Kent secret identity, the glasses wearing, posture altering persona as a disguise to hide the fact that he is also Superman.

5. Nothing wrong with a lighter tone. Better than Superman making porn. You could have also written the pre-crisis Superman darker without sacrificing all of it.
Byrne's Superman often had a light tone. As I've pointed out, Superman really didn't engage in pornographic acts. Byrne's Superman wasn't very dark. Like Jery Siegel intended, Byrne's Superman showed a sense of humor, toying with criminals humorously.

6. What about Byrne actually using the "silly" stuff? Bizarro, Titano, the "Pocket Universe", Joker building nuclear-powered(!!!!!!!) Superman decoys...
Not to mention Mister Mxyzptlk, the Toyman, the Prankster, Jimmy Olsen's Signal Watch.

7. Byrne's stories weren't overly realistic.
I'm aware of that, especially his stories with Mister Mxyzptlk.

He also couldn't keep a consistent power level. Sometimes Superman was pretty weak - next time he seemed as strong as in the pre-crisis days.
Byrne set consistent limits to Superman's powers, closer to the Golden Age. He was still super strong but he couldn't move planets around, had super speed but he couldn't time travel, he couldn't survive without air forever, etc.

8. Superman executing depowered and helpless people is also not a very good move, no matter what they have done.
They had killed everyone on their Earth and they were threatening to find his universe and repeat their atrocity. Superman was the lone representative of that now-dead world. So he acted as their executioner. He executed them as punishment, and prevention from them finding his universe and repeating their atrocity on his Earth.

Superman creator Jerry Siegel had the Golden Age Superman kill villains as well in some cases while Siegel still had creative control of Superman. That was only changed because an Editorial Advisory Board was created by DC editorial director Whitney Ellsworth in Octobor, 1941. DC's Editorial Board was replaced with the creation of the Comics Code Authority in 1954.

This is from the transcript of the 1954 Senate hearings showing the editorial policy restrictions that every DC writer and artist had to follow from 1941 to 1954:


1. Sex. ─ The inclusion of females in stories is specifically discouraged. Women, when used in plot structure, should be secondary in importance, and should be drawn realistically, without exaggeration of feminine physical qualities.
2. Language. ─ Expessions having reference to the Deity are forbidden. Heroes and other "good” persons must use basically good English, through some slang and other colloquialism may be judiciously employed. Poor grammar is used only by crooks and villains ─ and not always by them.
3. Bloodshed. ─ Characters ─ even villains ─ should never be shown bleeding. No character should be shown being stabbed or shot or otherwise assaulted so that the sanguinary result is visible. Acts of mayhem are specifically forbidden. The picturization of dead bodies is forbidden.
4. Torture. ─ The use of chains, whips, or other such devices is forbidden. Anything having a sexual or sadistic implication is forbidden.
5. Kidnaping. ─ The kidnaping of children is specifically forbidden. The kidnaping of women is discouraged, and must never have any sexual implication.
6. Killing. ─ Heroes should never kill a villain, regardless of the depth of the villainy. The villain, If he is to die, should do so as the result of his own evil machinations. A specific exception may be made in the case of duly constituted officers of the law. The use of lethal weapons by women ─ even villainous women ─ is discouraged.
7.Crime. ─ Crime should be depicted in all cases as sordid and unpleasant. Crime and criminals must never be glamorized. All stories must be written and depicted from the angle of the law ─ never the reverse. Justice must triumph in every case.
In general, the policy of Superman D─C Publications is to provide interesting, dramatic, and reasonably exciting entertainment without having recourse to such artificial devices as the use of exaggerated physical manifestations of sex, sexual situations, or situations in which violence is emphasized sadistically. Good people should be good, and bad people bad, without middle ground shading. Good people need not be "stuffy" to be good, but bad people should not be excused. Heroes should act within the law, and for the law.

(Of course, as she was dying Faora had to offer sex to Superman in exchange for her life. That's the sophistication of the post-crisis days, I guess)
While John Byrne didn't write Superman just for kids, John Byrne had an all-ages approach to writing Superman, so Faora's desperate offer was tamer than you are characterizing it. She didn't say "I offer you sex" or "I will give you sexual pleasures." She said "I will show you pleasures."

Fact it, Byrne fans, you are totally blinded by childhood nostalgia.
Wrong again, I was not a child when Byrne revamped Superman. I was 19 years old in 1986, I was 20 years old in 1987 and 21 years old in 1988. The Bronze Age 1970s Superman was from my childhood (the Super Friends cartoons, the Mego dolls, Superman comics by Marty Pasko/Cary Bates/Curt Swan, Superman: The Movie), I enjoyed all that as a little boy, but some of it (Super Friends, etc.) makes me cringe as an adult. I don't just prefer the Superman material from my childhood. I don't view Superman and Batman as childhood nostalgia items.

Just because many people have problems with the pre-crisis Superman doesn't make the post-crisis Superman better. In fact, the final years of pre-crisis Superman weren't particualarly good but so were the first years of post-crisis. In many ways the reboot was just a waste. Get rid of the old stuff but replaced with stuff worse.
Again, that is purely your opinion, many people disagree with that opinion. Opinions differ. To each their own.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 03-15-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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