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Old 03-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #87
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 144

Okay, I'm making the first official movement to migrate the pandora's box of debates that got opened in the Catwoman thread

Milost, there were just a couple things you said that I wanted to address (even though you weren't addressing me with them)

Originally Posted by milost View Post
Why should other movies, prior to TDKR, such as Spider-Man 3, be criticized by those SAME exact problems, but TDKR gets a free pass? Seems hypocritical to me.
Well, the difference lies in the execution. I was one of the people afraid that Bane was going to be one of the ninjas in the monastery that burned down and that was the source of his injuries, etc. That to me would have been too unnecessarily convenient, which was the case in Spider-Man 3. In TDKR, they had an actual crack in the story to dive into. Ra's talking about his "great love" always felt like a nod to a larger history that we weren't privy to, especially if you have knowledge of the comics. In Spider-Man 3, if had the effect of the universe suddenly becoming a lot smaller. Whereas in TDKR, I felt like the world of the story was expanding in scope.

Plus, in the case of TDKR divulging previously unknown backstory there was actual pathos, parallelism, foreshadowing, mystery, misdirection. It was good filmmaking. In Spider-Man 3 it was nothing beyond, " gun seems to have gone off". It didn't have much value beyond it's mechanical reasons for being in the film (giving Peter a reason to hate and then forgive Marko). In TDKR that whole al Ghul/Bane backstory stuff was amongst my favorite material in the film because I felt it worked on a multitude of levels, and I thought the Lawrence of Arabia vibe is where the film got a lot of its "epic" juice from.

Originally Posted by milost View Post
The Dark Knight never had to "tweak" Batman Begins' story and insert things into it, it just logically built off of it. Why does TDKR do this? Seems a little strange to me.
Because that's part of the joy of storytelling. In the third act, we like to find out stuff that we thought was true turn out to be different than we thought or not true at all. This is true on a micro-level (act 3 of a movie), so why not on a macro-level?

Originally Posted by milost View Post
You should be writing forward, not backward in my honest opinion.
This is the guy who did Memento, mind you.

But yeah, see I disagree. I think expanding the story in both directions is another thing that made TDKR that much richer and meatier. There's nothing inherently wrong sequelizing and prequelizing at the same time. Godfather Part II anyone?

Originally Posted by milost View Post
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but they should have left Ra's and the League of Shadows with Batman Begins. I remember the early days before Bane and Catwoman were cast, "Ra's and the gang (LoS)" was considered almost like this cliched fan story that was treated as taboo, like, "they'd never go there". But as it got closer and closer to July 20th, everyone realized that yup, that's exactly where they went, the way everyone expected it. The cliched way. I still remember the, "no, hope that's not Talia, can't be" even though it was. It's funny how things turn out. Bane couldn't just be that mercenary with his own code, ethics, etc. they had to twist him and make him part of Begins and the League Of Shadows (and even be poorly summarized with an origin by Alfred and others, half of which doesn't even end up being true for the sake of a twist).
Yeah and see, I was one of those people who said the very next day after seeing TDK that I think Ra's (or at least the themes of Ra's) needed to return in part III. With how much TDK was based around the inherent good/evil of humanity and whether or not it's worth saving, it seemed like the thematic threads were just waiting to be tied up. I didn't think Nolan would actually do it, but I certainly didn't think it was a bad thing that he did. Especially when it gave us a villain as memorable and iconic as Bane (I know you don't agree though).

And I'd love to see the poster who predicted that the LOS would lay siege to Gotham, utterly ruling over the city for 5 months and closing it off to the outside world(before there were spoilers out). I honestly don't recall anybody calling out No Man's Land as a potential influence for a TDK sequel. I'd like to shake the hand of anyone who did guess that though.

Originally Posted by milost View Post
I think it's the easiest trap to fall in, a trap that so many third films take (by going back to what made it so great), TDKR is certainly no exception.
And IMO, while TDKR uses "third movie" tropes heavily, it actually demonstrates why these cliches can actually work (like all cliches they exist for a reason) when they're executed with command and virtuosity. Nolan takes so many ingredients from SO many third movies (he himself said they watched a ton of third moves in preparation) and run laps around most of them.

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