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Old 03-15-2013, 01:45 PM   #178
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Now...these the multi-quoting TDKR debates...rising from where we tried to bury them...

I blame milost, lol.

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
That's not the theme, nor is it even explored. It's all misdirection.

Alfred: "Who leads the LOS now?"
Bruce: "Ra's Al Ghul was the LOS and I beat him. Bane is just a mercenary"

Bruce: "You were the mercenary. Bane is your child. Your heir"
Ra's: "An heir to ensure the LOS fulfills it's destiny"

Then there was Alfred telling Bruce the rumors surrounding Bane escaping the pit.

Then we learn not only did Bane not escape the pit as we were led to believe, nor is he the son of Ra's, but Talia is the real child and heir of the LOS, and she escaped the pit, and she was the reason they were here to honor her father by completing his work. Bane was just the protector doing it because he loved Talia. His only "crime".
You're right. It's not the theme, nor is it explored. But I do think the subtext is there. Obviously Bane isn't literally the son of Ra's. But he can still be viewed as a surrogate son that Ra's "adopted", and then rejected. Which parallels the way Ra's was like a surrogate father to Bruce, who Bruce then rejected. The parallels aren't just there coincidentally. It added a layer to the story.

I'm gonna skip ahead and connect this with another part of your post:

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
It's a moot point anyway. He never escaped the pit. He never demonstrated he was someone extraordinary like that and an equal to Bruce in any way. Talia was that. She found the strength to escape the pit like Bruce did. Ra's was her father like he was a father figure to Bruce. They were both trained by Ra's. They had both rejected Ra's.
Yes, I agree the parallel is absolutely there with Talia as well, but it doesn't negate the emotional complexity of Bane being being the outcast of that "family", but remaining loyal to Talia and serving her father's ideals. I don't think that makes him weak, I think that's precisely what makes him interesting. Anyway, I think it's best to view Bane/Talia almost as a single entity for the purposes of exploring the thematic elements of TDKR.

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
The only similarity is that they both wanted to take down the hero. That's it. Kraven was already a big successful game hunter who had bagged every kind of dangerous animal there was. He just decided to up the ante and target Spider-Man.

Bane had not proved his worth at all when he came to Gotham.
Isn't that getting a bit into the semantics and not looking at the big picture? Here's the first sentence of the Marvel Universe Wiki for Kraven:

Kraven was a maniacal big game hunter who sought to defeat Spider-Man to prove that he was the greatest hunter in the world.
I don't care about what they had done prior to coming to Gotham/New York, I'm just talking about the general idea behind the characters. Both Bane and Kraven want to be the "champion" and take down the hero for the sport of it, without having any existing personal vendetta with the hero.

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Yeah Alfred told us that. He was behind some kind of coup in West Africa securing mining operations for John Daggett.

What's your point? He was already set up with the LOS by Talia at this point.
My point is if he was exiled from the LOS prior to Batman Begins, that means he had to have spent the past 9 or so years doing something. The guy has to eat, and his skill-set is pretty limited to various acts of violence, lol. They don't call him a mercenary for nothin'.

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Conjecture. You think he just arrived in the pit when Talia's mother was attacked and he just decided to play protector? That he never tried to escape the pit before and failed?
True. I'll give you that, he probably tried and failed- like everyone else who used the rope. But Bruce had his failed attempts to. I'm just saying, after he was attacked (and saw that it might be more possible to escape without using the rope) I think he was too messed up to ever be able to try again.

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Actually the story was put in motion with Mrs. Al Ghul selflessly taking Ra's place in the pit.
Also true. But still, Bane had an important role to play in the way things unfolded, which I thought was a nice touch.

Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Ummm they didn't buy the nuke. They stole it from W.E., just like they stole the Microwave emitter from W.E. in Begins.
I know. That's just my way of saying that things like bank robberies are kind of small potatoes compared to scale that the LOS operates on. And that's no knock to The Joker at all. I just think it's apples and oranges.

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