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Old 03-15-2013, 04:30 PM   #185
BatLobsterRises
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
You're right actually. This feels like old road with you, too. Not that that's a bad thing. Just somewhat redundant.



Lol true, but I like his style, so that's a compliment to us both.
Yeah, I wasn't knocking the guy. He's feisty and a pretty merciless debater, so I guess some of his mega-posts have reawakened a bit of that fire from last summer/fall. It's not a bad thing, but you're right it's quite redundant because when it comes to the regulars of these debates we all know where we all stand on certain things. Oh well, lol. Even if we know we're not going to change the other's minds, at least hopefully it provides some food for thought for everyone else and a jumping off point for other discussions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
But it's not an emotional complexity. It's a straight forward case of doing it for someone he loves. Where is the complexity? Just like how he put his life on the line to protect her in the pit when he had nothing to gain from that other than he loved her. He was doing it for her. Just like he was doing it for her again 9 years later in Gotham.
To me the complexity is in him being able to reconcile being exiled by Ra's with his devotion and loyalty to Talia, and I think there is a definite hint of him wanting to succeed where Ra's failed and go down in history as his superior. The love and devotion for Talia is straight forward, but yet it's another twisted notion that this guy who cherished the innocence of one child so much and was noble enough to die for her is also willing to kill 12 million people because of that same fierce loyalty and devotion. Maybe complex isn't even the right word, I just find it a bit more intriguing than what's offered in the comics. Maybe it just speaks to me never having been the biggest fan of Bane in the comics that I preferred a version that was so closely tied to the LOS. I do enjoy Bane in the comics don't get me wrong, I just don't feel he was ever capitalized to his full potential in that medium. I respect Chuck Dixon's vision for the character though, it definitely filled a void in Batman rogues' gallery. And if I'm not mistaken, I think he said he was very happy with the way Bane was used in TDKR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardy's Bane, but for me it's easily a weaker version of the comics. The look of the character is leaps and bounds above the comics Bane though.
Yeah, agreed about the aesthetics. And it's fine if you like comics Bane more. That's fair enough and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, it's all just a matter of preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
It's not semantics, it's apples and oranges. Kraven had already got a reputation as the greatest hunter. He was famous for it. Who was Bane prior to coming to Gotham? A nobody who spent his life rotting in a prison for his father's crimes.

Bane was out to prove he was more than that. Kraven was just out to prove he was the best at what he already does. The only similarity is they both wanted to beat the hero.
I sorrta see what you mean, but to me that implies some sort of inferiority complex with Bane in the comics (which I suppose is arguably there). Who was he trying to prove it to? Himself? Batman? Everybody? If it's everybody, then that goes back to what I was saying about him being ego-centric. There are any number of ways Bane could prove his worth, but he specifically gravitates towards breaking Batman and taking over Gotham. Why? Because he had nightmares about a bat? It all just seems a bit shallow to me, but then again I'm sure that's how you feel about TDKR Bane so we're right back to square one, haha.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
They called him a mercenary because of the aforementioned antics Alfred mentioned. You might as well ask what was Talia doing for the last 9 years, too.
I'm just saying, I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that the guy did some "freelance" mercenary work during the time gap. Lindy Hemming even talked about how his wardrobe was designed around the idea that he had collected bits of it around the world. And his attire looks nothing like traditional LOS attire, it's way more militaristic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Again that's conjecture. You could say that of any one of the prisoners in that pit. The point is Bane didn't escape the pit. Nobody did except Bruce and Talia. Bane never demonstrated he was any kind of equal to Bruce, or capable of anything extraordinary like escaping that pit.

Talia did.
Well, yes, he didn't escape the pit. That's why Bruce is ultimately the better man. Still, I think Bane demonstrated some very extraordinary capabilities in the movie. Not even Ra's pulled off anything as audacious as that plane hijacking/abduction. The only other character in the story that I could picture doing something like that is Bruce himself...who kind of did with Lau in TDK.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I know, that wasn't my point though. You had mentioned Bruce came from wealth. That shouldn't have been an obstacle for Bane. It sure wasn't in the comics. I was saying Bane could have been rolling in millions, too, if he wanted to.
I brought up Bruce's wealth because both he and Bane engage in a very high scale, tactical style of warfare compared to The Joker who was all about using the simplest tools to cause the most carnage. So my point was Bruce had his fortune, Bane had the LOS's resources (as well as W.E. Applied Sciences', which was a great strategic move). Both he and Bruce inherit something powerful and use it for their cause.

And also, Daggett did say he paid Bane a small fortune. So yeah, I think Bane could have just been a career mercenary and done just fine for himself- if he wanted to, like you said. Clearly the guy could handle himself and had a talent for tactical destruction. I can see that you felt it robbed Bane of something to take away the fact that he escaped the prison on his own and make that untrue, but I guess I didn't think deflating Bane's legend made him a "worse" character. I thought it was pretty clever how they kind of played our expectations and comics knowledge against us for that twist, but still kept Bane an essential cog in the wheel of story. Just a slightly different role than we went in thinking.

I know you had a few more points, but honestly I'm just gonna cut myself short here (if you can call this "short") because I feel kind of cumbersome rehashing a lot of the stuff I had been saying months ago.

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