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Old 05-18-2013, 08:43 PM   #597
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
That's not how I view it. All 3 films are heavily influenced by stories in the comics as opposed to being loose adaptations. The difference is that BB and TDK meshed elements from those stories together really well and created their own unique stories whereas the comic influences in TDKR's story feel a lot more cut-and-paste than in the previous two films.

Basically, it felt to me as if Nolan sat down and said "Ok, let's have some No Man's Land stuff going on in this scene with some Knightfall stuff in these scenes with some Dark Knight Returns stuff here at the beginning and then right at the end" whereas in BB and TDK, it felt to me as if Nolan sat down and said "Ok, how could we create an interesting story out of these books we have here?" That is the difference. This is also part of the reason why I feel that unlike in BB and TDK, Nolan did not have a story to tell with TDKR even though he did say he won't come back unless he has a story.

Also, the problems I have with the departures from the comics present in TDKR mostly are character departures and essence departures as opposed to story departures (like I said, No Man's Land and all that other stuff is still there). All of that though is on top of the fact that I don't think TDKR works as a sequel to the previous films, which has always been my biggest problem with the film, and on top of the fact that a lot of things in the movie don't make sense when you look at the whole bigger picture overall.
I understand that they're all their own creatures, which is why they are so enjoyable. I was just pointing out TDKR is along those lines. Nolan wanted to tell a story of a physical force defeating Batman (Bane) and an event so catastrophic that it forces Batman to become more than a vigilante for the city, but its actual symbol of hope and order in total chaos (No Man's Land). It was most certainly built on its own themes of revolution, social decay, militant uprising, false populism, etc. Just because you do not like those themes does not mean it did not build those elements around the story. Nolan did not even know Bane broke Batman when he was crafting this story.

That would be true if I didn't have so many problems with the film prior to the ending. The ending is a problem, arguably one of the biggest ones, but even without it, the film still has tons of flaws.

The biggest problem with retiring Bruce are the following:
1) It was really forced. Nolan had to contrive a story in a film series where it looked like Batman would be Batman for a long time just so that he could say "I'm done! I don't want to make any more movies." BB and TDK were never building into a trilogy; they were the first two stories in a new franchise. It wasn't until production on TDKR started when Nolan decided it would be his last film when it became considered the epic conclusion to this "epic three-act trilogy". It wouldn't be a big problem either if TDKR didn't try to act as if, in retrospect, this was always meant to be a 3-act trilogy in the same vein as Star Wars and LOTR when that is just false. Heck, it almost wasn't even a trilogy originally looked like he wasn't coming back. I believe we had this discussion before though.
That seems a personal issue though. Nolan chose to make it a trilogy and you did not like to see it as such. He also claims he did not necessarily plan an exact sequel to BB with the Joker. Like the first two, TDKR is its own animal. I appreciate that.

2) Overall, the whole ending was poorly executed. The way they made Bruce quit completely goes against what Batman is all about. Gotham was in a worse condition than ever before - even worse than at the end of BB and TDK respectively - and Bruce decides to hang up the cape & cowl, pass the mantle on to a rookie cop without giving him training or anything like that, and move to Europe with Selina. Technically, he didn't even need to get into the Bat since he fixed the autopilot months ago. He lied that it was broken and lied about his death - in a movie with the message that lying is wrong even if it's for the greater good - entirely out of selfish reasons. On top of that, an even bigger problem with the ending even more so than Bruce quitting is the overall message of the ending: Anyone can be Batman and Batman is a legacy. That is the message in the film that completely flies in the face of the essence of Batman and is perhaps my biggest problem with the film on top of the messages and themes ignored/contradicted from the previous 2 films. You're telling me there was no way to do an ending with Bruce retiring more in-character and in an ending that didn't have all those messages in them that go against Batman's essence?
In your opinion. Nolan chose to deal with ending the story in a way that left nothing ambiguous (other than what exact costume Blake would wear). Bruce has moved on. Eventually, Bruce Wayne either would die or let go. Nolan chose the latter. And I think either one would have left fans unsatisfied, because the comics NEVER end the story.

The comics have technically given Batman a "happy ending" before (no sexual pun intended ). The Dark Knight Returns managed to do just that. Frank Miller made Batman retire by the end in a way that still honors everything Batman is all about and still delivers a happy Bruce Wayne by the end, hence the last line of the book being "This will be a good life, good enough". It's also important to note that Bruce has a very different outlook on life than we do. What you and I consider to be a happy life is not what he would consider to be a happy life. Bruce is a guy that constantly needs & wants to do something that benefits the world even in retirement - i.e. in TDK Returns when he decides to teach the Sons of the Batman everything he knows and guide them through everything so that they could continue his work.
Yes, TDK Returns gave Bruce an in which he continues to be Batman in secret and enlists hundreds of druggies and freaks to continue on his mantle. The war is not over and he subsists on it. It also got a sequel.

TDK Rises will have no sequel. Bruce Wayne let go of Batman because the only other final ending is death.

I like that Nolan chose to go there. Many fans do not.

"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

--John Adams
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