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Old 05-28-2013, 06:30 PM   #49
Spider - Man
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Seeing as how they have and do, there may be more to it than that. You sound uninformed on this subject, first you ask who's trying, then you say they don't sustain series. Are you sure you know what you're talking about here?
This is priceless. I was gonna ask you to show me where I ever said 'who's trying' but then I got to the end of your post. You actually think I'm Endeavor? I live in Durham, NC. He apparently lives in Florida! Man, talk about trying to be telepathic! I wish a mod could verify IP addresses just to show how foolish you are. I've never even seen a post by endeavor until today in this thread! Oddly enough however, I have a strong suspicion that you and metaphysician are one and the same.

But to address what I did say - 'sustain' is subjective. Black panther could run 3 issues and you could say 'it sustained a 3-issue series.' Rather than argue semantics, just read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story for why the Panther series were cancelled. Just like Luke Cage it didn't bring in enough money each month. When I say sustain, I mean for hundreds and hundreds of issues like Spider-Man, Daredevil, FF, Avengers.

And tell me one black Marvel (I don't read DC) superhero series being published besides Ultimate Spider-Man (which has hardly proven a track record itself).


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I didn't say anything about improvement. Some things work better as period pieces, like Indiana Jones. But if modernizing is the route you choose to go, then on some level, you'd want to represent other races as parts of your story, assuming you are updating it to modern America.
"adding diversity just makes things better": your words - I guess you can enlighten us all on the difference between 'improvement' and 'making things better'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The same way that simply making a white piece of clothing black makes something better, the same way that making one of the members of the group 'edgy' or 'vegan' or anything different makes the thing better. It's art, more textures tell a richer story. Sometimes this increases sales, sometimes, not, but it always makes it a better story in the long run - unless the story is specifically about a certain set of textures or attributes.
Yes, those cool black wedding dresses are all the women can talk about! You certainly think a lot of your opinion trying to throw it around like it's fact.

You know, I actually want some clarification on this because I believe this points out just how twisted you opinion is: you are actually saying you believe as fact that if you have a white dress and dye it black - BAM! - it is better? You have a black dress beside a white dress - the black dress is better? Just because it's black? I think the bias is showing thru.

Or how about this: Man, this series just isn't selling. I guess we can cancel it or...no! Let's make one of the characters vegan! Instant best-seller!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
My first problem with your viewpoint is that it requires creating a viewpoint for someone else whom you don't know. This Dr. Cosmic character, if I didn't know him, I could review his posts in this thread where he refers to Asian characters as diversity, and see that what you're saying is just plain wrong. Not only that, I would not see any basis for you making this statement about Dr. Cosmic's perception of Diversity, other than the fact he was talking about black people like everyone else in the thread. I would also be able to read this post where he shares his philosophy of how diversity impacts art as inclusive of any and all differences. Even without going to other threads, or directly asking the guy, I would recognize the fallacy of ad hominem and begin to suspect that you don't actually have a point, since your argument rests on you positively knowing, without question or basis, what someone else is thinking.
So, you're saying I am wrong about your viewpoint? You think it would be a good idea to have a movie with a fat Reed Richards, a bilateral amputee Johnny, mentally handicapped Sue and a suicidally depressed Ben? Well, I mean as long as one of them is black and one is Asian, of course. Is that what you're saying? Because otherwise you're just being a hypocrite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Now, it just so happens, that I actually *am* Dr. Cosmic, and so not only do I know what my sense of diversity is, but I can be quite sure that your entire problem with my viewpoint is entirely of your own design with no relation to reality whatsoever. And no matter how strongly you may personally believe it to be true, it is, in fact, baseless, as your lack of ability to back up that I "only want diversity to mean black" attests to.
Fine, race. That better? You have only mentioned diversity in the context of race. So again, you would be in favor of a film as I described above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I suppose for someone who really believes they can read minds, this would seem to be me belittling those who disagree with me, but in reality, you cannot read minds, and your conclusion of my perception of diversity and this PC motivation of all those Hollywood types is fallacy, and that type of illogic has been and will continue to be belittled in every credible debate. The reason for this is simply that, if you examine it closely, it is not only not logic, but intellectually dishonest. I would be doing you and those reading a disservice if I did not highlight such illogic for what it is.
Again, you're talking to the wrong person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
That said, my second problem with what is actually your point is that it imagines some statement about representation percentage-wise. I used to feel that way for a while, so I suppose if you combed through my back posts, you might reasonably come to this conclusion. In my older posts, and my overarching commentary has always been about the art of diversity, not the science.
Funny thing about art is it's all subjective. If you read back to one of my earlier posts, you'll see that I actually say that what this boils down to is a matter of opinion and what each person personally holds most important. Some think staying true to the comic is most important. Others like you think that changing the race and 'mixing it up' is more important. The problem is that, again, you think your preference is actually the 'truth' when the truth is that is delusional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I'm not as familiar with the slippery slope fallacy that you seem to be using for these percentages, so I won't wring you over that one.
Yeah a really hard Google search - 'breakdown of America by race'. Just one of the MANY sources of the 'slippery slope fallacy' you seem to have imagined I pulled out of a hat - http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762156.html

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
What I will say is that stories about physically superior people would naturally exclude obese and handicapped, just as a painting of the ocean should naturally exclude the color yellow, or the story of Augustus Ceasar would naturally exclude other races.
Wow. So obese or physically handicapped people are incapable of being 'superior'? Nice. Peel back another layer on this Dr. Cosmic person you speak of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Diversity is a function of the story. This is a principle of storytelling that we all enjoy. It's what makes stories great, the differences, the tension, the subtext, the conflict. It's not based on race, it just applies to race like everything else.
You can have plenty of tension, differences, subtext and conflict without changing the race of an established character. The fact that Stan and Jack did all of that with a quartet of white people for years and years kinda implies it doesn't necessarily apply to race in fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Take Iron Man for example, physically damaged with a prosthesis, and PTSD to boot. That angle brings diversity to the superhero stable, and not only is it critically praised, but the filmmakers got thank you letters from sufferers.
So one example of this demographic is sufficient to fill the quota for that excluded minority? So would one example of a black superhero satisfy you? One homosexual? I guess you really don't care about the numbers, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
And while we haven't seen it in films, yet, we are overdue. Have we seen a gay superhero yet? No, but when we do... I hope people don't make a big muck about it like they have the very idea of black Johnny or they did with gay Colossus in the ultimate universe.
Again, I have nothing against diversity of any kind except when it takes established characters and changes them to realize some quota.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
See how much of your point relies on your telepathy?
My point lies on my opinion just like yours.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
No filmmaker is obligated to make these changes, but if they choose to, as several filmmakers have before, and many more may in the future, what's wrong with that? Why is that inferior to creating new heroes? What makes one route 'right' and one route 'wrong?'
And as I said before the choice is up to the filmmakers. The performance of the film will determine to many if the choices were good or bad. So let them do what they will and let the results speak for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I think I've addressed that well enough. So, no, Endeavor, these are not good arguments, by any means.
Again, if only you could see...


Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-28-2013 at 06:51 PM.
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