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Old 05-28-2013, 07:49 PM   #52
DrCosmic
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
This is priceless. I was gonna ask you to show me where I ever said 'who's trying' but then I got to the end of your post. You actually think I'm Endeavor? I live in Durham, NC. He apparently lives in Florida! Man, talk about trying to be telepathic! I wish a mod could verify IP addresses just to show how foolish you are. I've never even seen a post by endeavor until today in this thread!
Hmmm... sounds like we're both wrong on that one. The original comment was made by weezerspider, when you responded, I never noticed that you were not the originator of that line of conversation. The comment to Endeavor at the end of the line was for Endeavor, not you, as is indicated by my direct response to his comment about you, Spider - Man, as opposed to the statement by you, that I quoted. So, sorry for the confusion, but again you claim to know what I'm thinking, despite evidence to the contrary.

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But to address what I did say - 'sustain' is subjective. Black panther could run 3 issues and you could say 'it sustained a 3-issue series.' Rather than argue semantics, just read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story for why the Panther series were cancelled. Just like Luke Cage it didn't bring in enough money each month. When I say sustain, I mean for hundreds and hundreds of issues like Spider-Man, Daredevil, FF, Avengers.
If hundreds of issues is the standard, then the issue is not race, as no character other than those who already have films can do that. I think the line is about 1965. If that's your point: you're correct! That's totally irrelevant to the discussion though.

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"adding diversity just makes things better": your words - I guess you can enlighten us all on the difference between 'improvement' and 'making things better'.
The difference is that improvement was in a sentence about updating, which is not always true. Making things better was in a sentence about diversity. I think everyone else was enlightened enough by the period between the two sentences, and the fact that diversity and updating are not synonyms.

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Yes, those cool black wedding dresses are all the women can talk about! You certainly think a lot of your opinion trying to throw it around like it's fact.

You know, I actually want some clarification on this because I believe this points out just how twisted you opinion is: you are actually saying you believe as fact that if you have a white dress and dye it black - BAM! - it is better? You have a black dress beside a white dress - the black dress is better? Just because it's black? I think the bias is showing thru.

Or how about this: Man, this series just isn't selling. I guess we can cancel it or...no! Let's make one of the characters vegan! Instant best-seller!
The context of the conversation is diversity. Out of context, you're right, dying a white dress black will not make it better. Certainly, when a dress being white has meaning for the story, and is in fact diverse, that would make it worse! This actually proves my point, that diversity is aesthetically superior until it conflicts with the story.

In the context of our discussion, where everything is white, something being a different color would make the story more interesting. Why is this thing black, what does that mean for the story? Having everyone wearing different colors, now it actually starts to look like the real world, like these are real people we live around.

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So, you're saying I am wrong about your viewpoint? You think it would be a good idea to have a movie with a fat Reed Richards, a bilateral amputee Johnny, mentally handicapped Sue and a suicidally depressed Ben? Well, I mean as long as one of them is black and one is Asian, of course. Is that what you're saying? Because otherwise you're just being a hypocrite.

Fine, race. That better? You have only mentioned diversity in the context of race. So again, you would be in favor of a film as I described above?
In a thread about race, I have also mentioned diversity of personality and clothing styles, among other things. I would be in favor of such a film if I lived in a world where everyone had severe mental and physical handicaps.

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Again, you're talking to the wrong person.
I should be, but later in this post you express that you feel the motivation is to fill some sort of quota. So, the response is actually spot on.

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Funny thing about art is it's all subjective. If you read back to one of my earlier posts, you'll see that I actually say that what this boils down to is a matter of opinion and what each person personally holds most important. Some think staying true to the comic is most important. Others like you think that changing the race and 'mixing it up' is more important. The problem is that, again, you think your preference is actually the 'truth' when the truth is that is delusional.
Well... all the people who make the films seem to think that updating the property is more important than staying true to the comics, so I'll go ahead and join them in their delusions about art, even when mixing it up or updating happens to include race.

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Yeah a really hard Google search - 'breakdown of America by race'. Just one of the MANY sources of the 'slippery slope fallacy' you seem to have imagined I pulled out of a hat - http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762156.html
Okay, if that's where you want to go.

Fallacy is not whether information is true or not, it is the intellectual integrity of how you use it. In this case the Slippery Slope fallacy is when the arguer presupposes that an undesirable action leads to an even more undesirable action, without establishing the cause and effect. In this case, representing racial diversity, does not necessarily lead to representing racial diversity based on population samples. (and if so, of what, of the country? The city? the state? the job field?) Not only would it be silly to do so, but there are many counter examples of diversity that have done no such thing, thus disproving the relationship you assumed. As such, your argument becomes textbook slippery slope. But you're not content to slide there, you then continue to warn about the dangers of this path, by creating an even more extreme example where not only are all types of diversity represented - even ones that do not fit the motivation given for using racial diversity - even ones that conflict with the very essence of the story. And not just represented, but make up the entirety of the central cast, the entirety of the story, where they are overrepresented. You've painted a picture where a little less under-representing of one thing is supposed to lead to over-representing of something totally different. Then you've labelled anyone who disagrees with this textbook fallacy a hypocrite, adding a little ad hominem kickback at the bottom of the slippery slope.

So no, Spider - Man, just no.

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Wow. So obese or physically handicapped people are incapable of being 'superior'? Nice. Peel back another layer on this Dr. Cosmic person you speak of.
Physically superior. And not talking about capability. So we have Ad hominem, slippery slope with an Ad Hominem chaser and now just outright misquoting. This is your argument? This is you giving it to me? This is *me* being delusional?

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You can have plenty of tension, differences, subtext and conflict without changing the race of an established character. The fact that Stan and Jack did all of that with a quartet of white people for years and years kinda implies it doesn't necessarily apply to race in fact.
You can also do that with race. So what's the problem, again?

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So one example of this demographic is sufficient to fill the quota for that excluded minority? So would one example of a black superhero satisfy you? One homosexual? I guess you really don't care about the numbers, do you?
There's no quota. Each story has its own advantages of different levels and types of diversity. I would suspect the filmmakers care about story more than how many black or gay or whatever superheroes there are in other people's stories as well.

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Again, I have nothing against diversity of any kind except when it takes established characters and changes them to realize some quota.
There's that darned telepathy again. When has this ever happened? When has a race ever been changed to fill a quota?

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My point lies on my opinion just like yours.
Then your opinion is based on fantasy/fallacy, as opposed to observation and reality, and is irrelevant to the discussion of the thread.

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And as I said before the choice is up to the filmmakers. The performance of the film will determine to many if the choices were good or bad. So let them do what they will and let the results speak for themselves.
So are you retracting your advice to not take the route of making white characters other races? Or should I take this as your inability to justify such a viewpoint?

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Last edited by DrCosmic; 05-28-2013 at 07:55 PM.
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