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Old 05-29-2013, 08:33 AM   #59
Spider - Man
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Hmmm... sounds like we're both wrong on that one. The original comment was made by weezerspider, when you responded, I never noticed that you were not the originator of that line of conversation. The comment to Endeavor at the end of the line was for Endeavor, not you, as is indicated by my direct response to his comment about you, Spider - Man, as opposed to the statement by you, that I quoted. So, sorry for the confusion, but again you claim to know what I'm thinking, despite evidence to the contrary.


Perhaps in your zeal to show how clever you are, you shouldn’t address one poster in a response to another. I don’t claim to know what you think. I have read what you have posted which has been about nothing but diversity in the context of race. I merely pointed out that if you truly value diversity, there is much more to it than race which your posts suggest is all you care about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
If hundreds of issues is the standard, then the issue is not race, as no character other than those who already have films can do that. I think the line is about 1965. If that's your point: you're correct! That's totally irrelevant to the discussion though.
So what IS the standard? And it is completely relevant. You and others seem to be of the opinion that making an all white cast less white and more black or Asian or Latino or whatever automatically makes something better. Worse, you claim that the best way to do this is to change the race of existing characters as opposed to adding new ones. You have tried to make a distinction between science and art. ‘Better’ is subjective as all art is. This is all about opinion of which each person has their own and there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ which I have been saying. The problem with those peoples’ opinions (changing white to black automatically makes things better) is when they try to pass them off as fact, as you do. The reason it is a problem is that the numbers don’t back it up. The ultimate (no pun intended) white to black change in the comic world has to be the new Ultimate Spider-Man. Black people finally got what they wanted: the greatest superhero in the world made into their own race. This was gonna be the proof they’d all been looking for to show that if all these heroes had just been created in the modern day, many more of the most popular heroes would be black or Latino or whatever and would be just as successful as their white incarnations. From what I understand the writing on the series is brilliant. So why has it not even reached the quarter mark and is already scheduled for cancellation? Why are sales so low?

Funny you choose 1965 so you can exclude Panther, arguably the most popular black character. But Wolverine and the modern day X-Men came later and have had much greater success. The Punisher, likewise. Now as I said ‘success’ and ‘sustainability’ are subjective but if you compare apples to apples, it is clear that black heroes just don’t have the staying power of white ones. That isn’t a knock and it isn’t an opinion. It is a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The difference is that improvement was in a sentence about updating, which is not always true. Making things better was in a sentence about diversity. I think everyone else was enlightened enough by the period between the two sentences, and the fact that diversity and updating are not synonyms.
Your words: On one hand, changing race is like changing the types of cars and buildings you see in the background. If you're updating a property to the modern era instead of the 60s, that includes removing the whitewash. On the other hand... adding diversity just makes things better overall in general.

It would be grammatically correct to replace ‘updating’ with ‘making improvements’ in the context of your sentence. The problem is that it then makes your whole point grammatically incorrect. You’re basically saying: ‘On one hand changing race is making an improvement but on the other hand diversity (changing race, by your definition) makes everything better. It would be the same as saying ‘On one hand it is great but on the other hand it is wonderful’. Doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The context of the conversation is diversity. Out of context, you're right, dying a white dress black will not make it better. Certainly, when a dress being white has meaning for the story, and is in fact diverse, that would make it worse! This actually proves my point, that diversity is aesthetically superior until it conflicts with the story.
You never mentioned context. You made an absolute statement – a black dress is better than a white one. Again your logic is flawed. Diversity is subjective, specifically the amount of diversity. The diversity you support is to change the race of a white character to another (presumably your own). When you make another statement – diversity makes everything better – again, it is flawed in that you make it absolute. There can be innumerous changes made to a story that won’t conflict with it but in no way make it better and in fact make it worse (having the FF wear pink uniforms for instance).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
In the context of our discussion, where everything is white, something being a different color would make the story more interesting. Why is this thing black, what does that mean for the story? Having everyone wearing different colors, now it actually starts to look like the real world, like these are real people we live around.
And again, all of the diverse changes I mentioned would fit into that ‘real world’ scenario you claim you so desire yet don’t voice support for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
In a thread about race, I have also mentioned diversity of personality and clothing styles, among other things. I would be in favor of such a film if I lived in a world where everyone had severe mental and physical handicaps.
And as I said, making the FF’s unis pink would not make ANYTHING better.

And EVERYONE has to be handicapped to warrant including that demographic? Not ‘everyone’ is black. Or white. Why does this one segment of society require 100% compliance to justify inclusion?




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I should be, but later in this post you express that you feel the motivation is to fill some sort of quota. So, the response is actually spot on.
These are your words from another thread about changing race of the Human Torch: While nearly 40% of people in America are not white. Only 10-20% of superheroes are not white, and the disparity gets even larger when you consider white characters are figured much more prominently and often and respectfully than minority characters. So if I apply the principle of Representation to comics, then changing white characters to blacks supports Representation but changing black characters to white does not.

See how you use numbers? These are statistics. That makes it science, not art. When you start throwing numbers around, you are no longer talking aesthetics no matter how deluded you are that you think so. YOU are the one who brought ‘population samples’ to the discussion of race and diversity. I merely made the numbers more specific using available demographic data. So if it is a slippery slope, it began with your comments, not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Well... all the people who make the films seem to think that updating the property is more important than staying true to the comics, so I'll go ahead and join them in their delusions about art, even when mixing it up or updating happens to include race.
So you now have the ability to know what ‘all the people making these films’ are thinking? Are YOU a mind reader? And again you correlate ‘updating’ with ‘changing race’ which you say is the same as ‘diversity’.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Okay, if that's where you want to go.

Fallacy is not whether information is true or not, it is the intellectual integrity of how you use it. In this case the Slippery Slope fallacy is when the arguer presupposes that an undesirable action leads to an even more undesirable action, without establishing the cause and effect. In this case, representing racial diversity, does not necessarily lead to representing racial diversity based on population samples. (and if so, of what, of the country? The city? the state? the job field?) Not only would it be silly to do so, but there are many counter examples of diversity that have done no such thing, thus disproving the relationship you assumed. As such, your argument becomes textbook slippery slope.
See above about who started the ‘fallacy’ of basing racial diversity on population samples. So funny how if someone keeps you yammering long enough you wind up talking yourself into a corner. And yes, it is silly to try and make comics represent race statistically analogous to reality. You should never have attempted to claim legitimacy for it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
But you're not content to slide there, you then continue to warn about the dangers of this path, by creating an even more extreme example where not only are all types of diversity represented - even ones that do not fit the motivation given for using racial diversity - even ones that conflict with the very essence of the story. And not just represented, but make up the entirety of the central cast, the entirety of the story, where they are overrepresented. You've painted a picture where a little less under-representing of one thing is supposed to lead to over-representing of something totally different. Then you've labelled anyone who disagrees with this textbook fallacy a hypocrite, adding a little ad hominem kickback at the bottom of the slippery slope.

So no, Spider - Man, just no.
I never warned about the danger of anything. If I did, please quote me. Your motivation for using racial diversity is clear: your favorite hero is white, you are not (your words) so you WANT to see the races of white characters changed to satisfy your own desires. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem is you’re not content with it just being about what you personally want. You have to somehow try and justify why doing so is actually ‘right’ when right or wrong don’t even apply. And again, using ‘overrepresented’ is based on numbers. If we’re not using racial diversity based on population samples, what exactly are you basing the terms ‘over-‘ and ‘under-represented’ on? I would argue that not having any member of the FF be black did not hurt sales one bit and that changing the race of one would not help sales in the long run.
When I was a kid, Jimmie Walker was the coolest cat around. All my friends used to do the strut and say “Dyno-mite!” Michael Jordan is one of my heroes. But never once did I ever think “I just wish one of them was white so I could relate to them more” or “Man, if JJ was white and adopted into the family, it would sure make the story more interesting!”
I didn’t say you were a hypocrite for not agreeing with me. I said you are a hypocrite for throwing around the term diversity in such a broad manner but then only pigeon-holing it specifically to race to suit your own desires while denying the legitimacy of other minorities’ desires to be represented based on the same argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Physically superior. And not talking about capability. So we have Ad hominem, slippery slope with an Ad Hominem chaser and now just outright misquoting. This is your argument? This is you giving it to me? This is *me* being delusional?
Physically superior is subjective. Superman is physically superior to Spider-Man in strength. A friend of mine lost both legs in Iraq, got a set of Cheetah running legs and has won many competitions against men who still had both their legs. I don’t know you but would bet a week’s pay he could beat you in a race so in that context he is physically superior to you. But you using the distinction ‘physically superior’ as a definition to deny that anyone who is physically handicapped could be physically superior is insulting. And yes, delusional.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
You can also do that with race. So what's the problem, again?
There is no problem. It again all comes down to opinion. In mine, merely changing the race of an existing character does nothing to enhance a story. I do not think that if Stan Lee had somehow changed Johnny black in issue #27 of the FF, it would have done anything to improve to stories, the sales, anything. It might have made the small comic-reading portion of 11% of the American public happy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
There's no quota. Each story has its own advantages of different levels and types of diversity. I would suspect the filmmakers care about story more than how many black or gay or whatever superheroes there are in other people's stories as well.

There's that darned telepathy again. When has this ever happened? When has a race ever been changed to fill a quota?
So funny you accuse me of thinking I’m telepathic while claiming to intuit what the filmmakers care about. And again, you are the one who brought up percentages of society as represented by race so yes, that would indicate that upping the number of minorities is tantamount to meeting some quota to you. As I said earlier, if you want to use terms like over- and under-represented, the numbers have to be based on something, not some esoteric fluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Then your opinion is based on fantasy/fallacy, as opposed to observation and reality, and is irrelevant to the discussion of the thread.
No, you take your opinion and try to express it as a moral truth, as a fact. I say that smacks of you feeling entitled, like expecting that companies SHOULD change some characters black is in fact simply the way it should be, that to do otherwise is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
So are you retracting your advice to not take the route of making white characters other races? Or should I take this as your inability to justify such a viewpoint?
I’m not retracting anything. I never offered advice, only opinion. And I offered it AS opinion as opposed to you trying to do so as fact. You can take it anyway you want. I’m sure to take it other than you’ve implied would only serve to open your eyes to how biased your viewpoint is. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, just that you seem incapable of seeing it.


Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-29-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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