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Old 05-30-2013, 11:04 AM   #66
Spider - Man
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Okay. No more cleverness. You concluding that my staying on the topic of the thread suggests that's all I care about is not reasonable. Don't read into me being on topic.


First, I don’t pretend to know all that you care about so would be in no position to declare it reasonable or not. The topic is apparently diversity which you say you have given examples of with relation to race, personality and clothing. I pointed out that you having such a narrow focus on diversity in the entirety of everything that could constitute it, ignoring so much more, indicates that you are only focused on the aspects of diversity that specifically address your personal desires. I said there was nothing wrong with that in itself except that you then try to make your opinion something more than opinion, attempting to use representation or diversity as a moral right instead of just a preference.


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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I have specifically stated situations and reasons in which diversity, of any type, is counterproductive.
“adding diversity just makes things better” – not ‘usually’ makes things better. So how can you reconcile these two statements.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I have not claimed that one way is better
See above. You make it too easy.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
you are the one who claims one is better than the other.
Show me.


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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
And what Black people, exactly, wanted Spider-Man to be Black?
Well, I don’t know them each by name but I can draw a logical conclusion when a bunch of people state on this very board how it is not enough to merely add new black characters because they just don’t gain the popularity of the classic ones and the only way to really even the playing field is to make some of the more popular white characters black. You don’t really get much more popular than ol’ Spidey. So I would conclude that all of those in favor of changing more popular white characters black would have Spidey at or near the top of their list. Just common sense based on posts in this and similar threads.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The X-Men franchise pre-dates 1965,
Which is why I specifically stated the MODERN DAY X-men team and title (launched in ’74 I think).

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
and the Punisher has not supported hundreds of issues. So, the point stands. New characters are not on the level of *those* franchises, regardless of race.
So by your logic, Black Panther should be more popular than Wolverine. I won’t even go any further. If you think you have an argument there, you’re deluded beyond help.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Certainly Black Panther has more staying power than, I dunno, Gravity.
Fine. So to rank the popularity of ALL the comic characters, where do you imagine Black Panther falls on the list? Luke Cage? Just curious to see your opinion. Or maybe you actually have some data to show this. Until you can provide a better measuring stick, I conclude that sales figures are the best indicator of popularity.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
You are noting that the most popular white characters are more popular than the most popular black characters. That's true, you're using that observation to say that white characters tend to be more popular than black characters. This is not true. The most popular black characters are more popular than 90-99% of white characters. So there's no direct correlation between race and popularity.
That means nothing. So you’re saying that out of, what, 5000 trademarked characters that Panther is as high as #50? And as low as #500? His popularity is nearly lost at that level. Again, if he is so popular, why doesn’t he currently have a title running? To accept that the reason for the failure of titles for black characters to sustain any significant run is simply because there aren’t enough people interested in reading them means that you would have to accept that changing a popular white character black would not ensure that title’s success. If I am wrong, tell me why the new Ultimate Spider-Man is scheduled for cancellation in ’14. As I said, all reports indicate that the comic is great, the writing phenomenal. Why do you think it is being cancelled?

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
What we do see is a direct correlation between time created and popularity. This not only explains the weak correlation between race and popularity, but also explains why the spottily written Luke Cage is more popular than the much better written Invincible.
a. I’ve already debunked the ‘time created’ correlation and given good support for race being the factor in the failure of minority-featuring comics to sustain a run.
b. I didn’t even know Cage had a comic currently out. In March, Invincible came in 137. If you see Cage on there, let me know.
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2013/2013-03.html





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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I agree, that's not usually how 'on one hand' is used, but that's exactly how I meant it. It's generally good on both hands.
Well, on one hand, that’s silly but on the other, it’s laughable.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I don't often mention context. I generally hope that the reader will take my statements as though it's part of a series of posts. If I say "you have telepathy," that's an absolute statement, but to take it as a belief in super powers, which is what it would be outside of the context of this conversation, instead of commentary on presumptuousness would be an incorrect reading. I expect everyone to do the same for all my statements, but you're free to interpret them as you think best.
Well, as I’ve already shown your tendency to present conflicting views, it is hard to follow your ‘context’ thru a series of posts. I have to take each one at face value.

And BTW, I just read your post in the BP thread where you said you wanted a film where Panther has got ‘it’ figured out all along, a statement that another poster (apparently on behalf of anyone who read it) asked you to clarify. You then attempt to do so and then admit that even your attempt is convoluted. See, this is one of your problems as I see it – you seem to live in your own little world and when you ramble off some random thought that skitters across your brain, you automatically assume everyone just knows what you’re thinking. Case in point, your context.


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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Again, I do not make it absolute, and no, changing everything to be another color cannot be diversity if they're still all the same color.
Ok, fine. You said “Having everyone wearing different colors, now it actually starts to look like the real world, like these are real people we live around.” So we could have the FF all dressed in different colored uniforms: one red, one green, one yellow and one pink. BY your definition, this would make it more like the real world. I wonder how many people would pay to go see a ‘real world’ FF movie of your design?

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
And again, the real world isn't completely composed of severe handicaps as your FF proposal is.
Well, I never said the world was ‘completely composed’ of handicapped people. But surely somewhere, there are groups that consist solely of handicapped people. Unless you are now advocating for a true demographically accurate representation of this group as relates to the real world, something you earlier said you did NOT want because that creates a slippery slope. Just another example of you trying to take both sides.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
What does that have to do with diversity or story? You're still equating diversity for story purposes with random changes for no reason.
I already conceded that you could make the uniforms each a different color. That is something YOU said would make it more like the real world. The fact that that has nothing to do with the story is on YOU.



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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
You weren't talking about inclusion, you were talking about exclusion of others, about 100% of the main characters, so yes, a segment of society would need to be nearly everyone, unless the story is about that segment of society.
Well, with only 4 main characters, I’d like to see how you could possibly include every demographic. By your logic, failure to do so is ‘exclusion’. So how would you make it so no one was excluded?

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Wow, that was a discussion with you, and you're back to finish it!? Okay. I was responding directly to your comment about it being a double standard. I said:
It’s not that big of a stretch. The topic is basically the same and didn’t take place that long ago. That has nothing to do with being ‘back to finish it’. I just considered us ‘continuing’ it.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
And then I went to describe in detail my perceptions of the viewpoints of others, with the expressed and repeatedly stated purpose of contradicting the idea that it is a double standard. It has little to do with what I feel is or is not acceptable.
So, for the record, you’re not a proponent of representation? That’s good.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I have the ability to see what they've done, as we all do, which indicates what they "seem to think" - those were my words. Updating can include changing race which can bring diversity. There's clear demonstrated correlation.
You said: “all the people who make the films seem to think that updating the property is more important than staying true to the comics so so I'll go ahead and join them in their delusions about art, even when mixing it up or updating happens to include race.” – another absolute statement to try and make it seem like not just the majority but in fact 100% of the filmmakers see things as you do, that updating the property (I am assuming you are referring to changing race) being more important than staying true to the comics when in fact this has only been the case a handful of times.


Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-30-2013 at 11:07 AM.
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