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Old 05-30-2013, 12:04 PM   #67
Spider - Man
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
That also didn't happen. I did not suggest matching character populations to population samples, and the fallacy is the bridge, which I explained in detail to you. It sounds as though you may not have read all of it, if you are not aware of this and describe my counterpoints as 'yammering.'
I read it all. You used numbers to show whites and non-whites as percentages of real society and as percentages as represented in comics to at the very least support someone else’s view of representation. Why bother with the numbers at all unless you wanted to see some change to that variable specifically? You used the terms under- and over-represented. Tell me how there can be perfect representation, neither over- nor under-, UNLESS it is in line with real world (a term you seem to repeatedly voice support for) percentages? Once again, you try to play both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
"As I and many others have said repeatedly, if anyone wants diversity, create more characters."
"So let them do what they will and let the results speak for themselves."

That's a warning where I come from.
I don’t know what the ‘warning’ is as there are 2 distinctly different sentences that don’t relate to each other. The first is my opinion that creating more black or other ethnic characters is a better choice than changing the race of existing characters. The second is simply me stating the way it is. They will make the movie they want to make and it will be successful or it won’t be. I really don’t understand your feeling like I’m ‘warning’ you.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
If I said that I want the races changed, please quote me.
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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I want the damn races changed and I want them changed NOW!
Nah, that was just a bit of fun. But you did say: I'll go ahead and join them in their delusions about art, even when mixing it up or updating happens to include race.

If it doesn’t say you want it, it definitely sounds like you favor it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I also was clear on the relation between diversity and story and sales is not a direct or instantaneous one. Over- and under- represented are based on population samples, but that's still not the same as setting a quota for population, neither does it create any of the other fallacious links that you suggested.
I would like to see if you are capable of making a post without using the words ‘fallacious’, ‘ad hominem’ or ‘slippery slope’. These seem to be your favorite buzz words and I’m sure you’ve gotten plenty of practice in using them.

See what I said above about this. I’m not wasting my time addressing the same thing repeatedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
That actually would have made the story more interesting, but that's not the story they wanted to tell. Also, relatability is an entirely separate discussion.
Good thing because you’d have probably been the only one watching. So much for your ‘diversity’. And the ability to relate is VERY closely tied to the discussion we’re having as far as many on here are concerned. Or have you not read any of the posts stating that one of the reasons for desiring the change of race of some of the more popular characters is so that the minority readers can feel more relatable to them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I keep disproving this pigeonholing thing over and over again. Then you suggest changing everything else to something different, something that conflicts with the story, and you call that diversity, and because I do not support this change which is not diversity, you call me a hypocrite. So you're right, it's not based on simple disagreement. It's much deeper than that, but still, demonstrably false.
I laid out a laundry list of diverse changes that could be implemented to include all manner of heretofore excluded segments of society that you, in all your pontificating about the value of diversity, never once acknowledged. All you were focused on was changing the race…oh, and diverse clothing. Sorry, forgot that all-important one! SO you have disproved nothing. You only even agreed that including handicapped people was a good idea when endeavor replied with how good of an idea HE thought it was. Sheesh!

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I don't think anyone would question Superman's physical superiority. That aside, a delusion is a strong conviction held despite superior evidence to the contrary. You did not present such, and then in my last post, I noted how those with physical disabilities can be superior if they have powers (or prostheses) that make up for that handicap. So it can't be a delusion if it is let go in the face of superior evidence.
Yes, your last post responding to endeavor after he basically restated what I had said which you first tried to downplay the legitimacy of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
And as I said, I wasn't talking about capability, I was talking about story, the story of a handicapped person is not the story of a physically superior person, but someone overcoming their limitations to do things that they could not have done before. Now, as demonstrated by Daredevil, that idea is not mutually exclusive with that of a power fantasy. That said, some superhero stories don't really fit with the handicap subplot very well, Fantastic Four, outside of Ben, would be among them. Spider-Man, surprisingly, would.
So making Johnny Storm black would automatically ‘fit’ in with the FF but making him a bilateral amputee would not? Again this is you trying to state your opinion as fact and it’s becoming very tired. You couldn’t see the story value in having Johnny lose his legs in the crash of the ship? The once confident ladies man now a cripple? Can’t you see the sheer dramatic value of this crippled man realizing that when his power is activated, he can fly?!

Yeah, I can see how important ‘story’ is to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
So... there's no problem changing the race of a character. So black Johnny Storm is perfectly okay?
Haha! YOu sound like you’re asking my permission. “Would you have a problem with me crossing your property?” “Is it okay if I asked your wife to dance?”

Listen, the people who make these movies don’t give a **** about what I have a problem with or what you have a problem with. All we have is our own opinions and preferences. And as the saying goes, that and $1.55 will get you a cup of Starbucks.

I would prefer that they don’t make Johnny black but what am I gonna do if they do? What are you gonna do if they don’t? You ask stupid questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Hmmm... I guess you could take it that way, but the rest of my statements clarify why I used those percentages. And it still doesn't create the slippery slope, that you claimed was a logical consequence.
‘Slippery slope’ – everyone drink a shot. So tell me, why did you bother trying to get me to understand a view that someone else held? Why did you feel you needed to go as far as to bring races in America represented as percentages into the conversation? The fact is, you used numbers to show the difference between the proportional number of non-white people in the real world and the proportional number of non-white people in comics, how it was wrong IF you were a proponent of representation (basically, there’s too many white people in these comics!) and somehow there was no mention of a slippery slope. But when I used statistical numbers to say let’s make sure everyone is represented as they are in the real world (and I was being facetious – as you said, how do we represent 0.9% of a person – just to show how ridiculous the notion was in the first place) suddenly now it’s a slippery slope. So as long as you just use vague approximations of the numbers, no slippery slope. Try to get too specific – slippery slope. More like Dr.Cosmic use numbers = good to go. Spider – man uses numbers = slippery slope. What a crock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The only subjective thing I've suggested as truth is that diversity is a good thing. Certainly, as a principle, this is true. Biodiversity, division of labor, etc. Where have I said that not changing the race of characters is wrong? Quote me.
The bolded is an absolute statement, no qualifiers. But you also said: I have specifically stated situations and reasons in which diversity, of any type, is counterproductive.

Ok, so let me just ask you: is NOT changing the race of any of the FF in the new film wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Anyone includes filmmakers.


*sigh* yes, cos, I said: if anyone wants diversity, create more characters.

So yes, if anyone INCLUDING FILMMAKERS wants diversity, let them create more characters (as opposed to changing the race of existing ones). I guess for once we agree.


Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-30-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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