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Old 08-12-2013, 11:45 PM   #95
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,579
Default Re: Lol...if i didn´t know the critics and GA´s score for this movie...

Alright justpassinby, since this post was more of a personal response to me, out of respect I'll do this the old fashioned way. Don't get used to this though!

Originally Posted by justpassinby View Post
1) Your general demeanor is way too argumentative, defensive, and passive-aggressive in order to pass for a "just speaking my mind outside of silly debate context".
Don't take it too personally. Lately I've just grown very tired of debating this movie in the standard point by point formula, because I feel everything's been argued and refuted in one way or another. I've been having super detailed debates with posters like The Joker, milost and Shikaramu for months and months now, and I'm at a point where I'm more or less spent. So just look at it from my point of view...all of a sudden a guy with a low post count comes in guns blazing, breaking down posts I made weeks ago, if not over a month ago. So yeah, I got a little passive aggressive because I'm just so weary about entering a debate with yet another new poster.

Originally Posted by justpassinby View Post
2) Multi-quotes =/= wanting to win/being less concise. It's just that when you respond to something that has multiple points in it (and those consisting of more individual elements themselves), one very practical way to deal with that properly is... breaking it down.
People claimiing how paragraph-by-paragraph debating makes it all worse and confusing, losing the larger points out of sight... lol on the contrary. And if those paragraphs add up to that larger point, which isn't always there... no worries, that's hard to go unnoticed, and then there's a train of thought running through the responses as well
I understand and get that, but personally I'm more interested in taking the discussion to a more macro level than debating the micro because the latter has been done ad nauseum. And I feel like my posts usually do have a pretty clear point to them, so I'm trying to keep it all streamlined for you too.

Originally Posted by justpassinby View Post
3) The realm we're generally breathing in here is "demonstrable opinions". Pure sentiments like "I dig this because it made me feel this" are being shared on some other thread, some other forum - right now, all these recent debates about TDKR are about points, arguments, argued evaluations of such, and using facts such as backstage info for proof / determining the whole thesis. Yes, there's a strong subjective component to it (as I said in those comments that changed your life), but a great deal of tangible objectivity as well.

Why? Because you lay claim to it - with stuff like "oh god now you convinced me", as well as generally using objectivey arguments in your posts.
No need to backtrack now
Oh, of course there's a huge element to these debates of both sides wanting to "objectively" corner the other side, but the problem I've found is that it just goes on forever. The more objectivity you throw at the debate, the more subjective it gets. Because often on this movie people can't even agree that A is A and B is B. The moments in the film that some people think are great are the very moments that others think are bad (IE your first response to me where you criticized the Gordon/Blake scene).

Originally Posted by justpassinby View Post
Meh, it happens. Maybe he understood it while making it, but then lost the thread afterwards?
Of course you could also argue that he didn't at all - but then I think to have some rather solid reasons for concluding he did, so if you wanna challenge it, pure subjectivity won't do... and is out of place anyway, cause ****'s getting tangible.
I don't have any problems with you liking every frame of Rises for whatever personal reasons/tastes, you know - after all I'd be a total douche if I did
The thing is, I just don't see why making creative choices to move forward in a way different than expected denotes an author misunderstanding their own prior work. TDK as a whole needed to be followed up, not just the supposed cliffhanger (which I never thought was a cliffhanger, more of an ambiguous ending that left them room to go plenty of directions). In Nolan's own words, the ending of TDK left us hanging with regards to Bruce's story- which is true. The decision to make Bruce no longer Batman at the start of the next film immediately sets it up as a bookending "Bruce Wayne's journey" film, which is exactly what the film needed to be in order to properly end the story that began in 2005, IMO. Could this have been done with him still active? Sure. But the idea that the Dent lie ends up cleaning up Gotham while Bruce's (and Gordon's) soul is still rotting is just too rich to pass up. This is the main reason I see it as a valid continuation of the's all about consequences, and it feels appropriate that the ending of TDK has positive surface repercussions for the city and negative internal repercussions for Bruce and Gordon. And on top of that it puts Bruce in this "lost" state, feeling useless, similar to how he was that the start of BB...adding to this feeling of things coming full circle. This is not to say that it's the only way the story could have continued, but I don't see it as any more or less valid than the alternatives. If Nolan's biggest crime here is retroactively turning a cliffhanger into a non-cliffhanger...well, as I said I don't even necessarily agree with that in the first place, and even if I did it still wouldn't bother me because the movie I got was better than the one I had been envisioning in my head for four years. To me the biggest crime they could have committed was having the lie accomplish nothing tangible or play no factor in the story. It would reduce the ending of TDK to a bunch of wishy washy mumbo jumbo and a sacrifice that doesn't end up making all that much sense in the grand scheme of things.

Originally Posted by justpassinby View Post
What. is for writers - TV Tropes is analysis / mainstream nerd culture, in other words what we have here
Heh, don't kid yourself though, tvtropes is an excellent resource for aspiring writers.

Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 08-12-2013 at 11:51 PM.
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