Originally Posted by Mjölnir
As for your comment about a flaw being minor, how does that change whether you can discuss it or not? For example, your comment about Asgard sending Volstagg and Sif isn't a big point at all, but I still found it interesting to think about. I thought this was just a friendly discussion, not all serious business.
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to sound too serious.
It's strange, we all have such strong opinions about these characters and their mythologies that
quite often its easy to sound very heated.
Everything should be up for discussion,and as to Jor El remaining behind
maybe they could have written better reasons for it, but again it is such an essential part of the Superman mythos that he's a man of two worlds, with parents who raised him (which was a struggle) and parents he never really knew, who he's struggled to come to terms with.
I still don't think it's a point that is really open to much scrutiny - and I'm quite fond of my analogy with the Waynes not going out the back door, while that may not seem as big a decision as Jor El's, it certainly had
irreversible and profound consequences for Bruce and everyone who's been influenced or affected by him.
But it's absolutely fair to discuss it, why not ?
Like I said about the original Superman film, the reason Jor El stays is because he doesn't want to create a panic -which is pretty fair. This is dealt with in a couple of lines of dialogue.
Maybe they could have done the same for MOS.....although maybe they were hinting at it when the council leader says "Are you suggesting we evacuate the entire planet." and Jor El replies "Everybody here is already dead." not as explicit as Superman the movie, but suggestive that is not practical for him to leave.
I know I'm repeating myself, but we could find many practical reasons why
Jor El and Lara don't leave Krypton
- unavailability of space ships, which makes sense, given that Black Zero, Zod's ship, didn't have a hyper-drive, until they converted the phantom zone projector into one, and that the Kryptonians had abandoned space travel, possibly 1000's of years before, and had no natural resources left.
- and of course Lara's pregnancy ( I was sort of kidding about it being common knowledge that pregnant women shouldn't travel thru hyperspace....), but he wouldn't have wanted to risk (or expose) Lara's pregnancy, given that no one had been born that way for centuries.
- the general time frame, that Jor El discovers Krypton is doomed (or at
least reports it to the council) within a day or so of his son's birth, then is murdered by Zod that same day, seconds after Lara launches the escape ship. I can't see Lara leaving without him (not because she doesn't want to be with her son, but she was probably too attached to memories of the only home she'd ever known).
But you are correct, that a line or two of dialogue could have cleared that
up really easily.
Having said that though, I think Jor El's philosophical reason, while hard to
understand, makes sense. He wanted Krypton to have a fresh start, free from the "brave new world" approach to determining people's futures.
Clearly he still wanted Krypton to survive (which was his whole point with the codex, and I'm guessing he would have known about the scoutship on Earth - he did have the technology, in his living room to have a look at Earth's population and atmosphere, so finding the ship would have been easy).
As he said later on (well the AI Jor El said) he wanted Kal to be a bridge between two worlds, and when he was ready, reestablish Krypton, in coexistance with Earth. If you want to have a go at minor points, there's some moral flaws in that argument you might pick up.
I'm not saying that in a condescending or sarcastic way, because it's true. Really, what Jor El wanted was for Kal to re-start Kryptonian civilization on Earth -which has some pretty big implications ( I live in a country where "colonization" is a dirty word ).
So, I agree, you can critique the explanation for Jor El remaining on Krypton (again, practically with the time frame, he never could have left, but then again he never planned to in the first place).
However, it's just part of the Superman mythos that we have to accept.
I'm struggling a bit to see your point about how Kryptonian society is described contradicted by what we see. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I think the whole point of Jor El, as a character, is that because of his intellect, he's an original thinker (remember, the greatest scientist on Krypton, what Einstein or Newton would be to us) of course
he's going to be able to see other ways of doing things, and particularly other solutions to problems.
For a super-technologically advanced race the council don't seem too clever, which is Jor El's point about Krypton having lost something - I think what he's getting at is without the freedom of choice of one's destiny, there can be no original thought.
Maybe through their genetic manipulation, with people being so channelled into one particular role, they've actually gone backwards. Maybe the film's point is that the superior man is one who can think for himself (wow, Jor El just became a nietschzean "super man").
In contrast to Jor El, the original thinker, we have Zod (I know I've said this before) who cannot live without his pre-determined purpose, and the Council, who are suicidally incompetent (maybe it's because they couldn't think like scientists, only politicians, they couldn't understand that harvesting Krypton's core would destroy the planet, boy good thing that sort of stuff doesn't happen in real life....oh crap, it does).
Zod, his goons (maybe the reason they can't fight as well as Jor El is that they're bred to be grunts and nothing more) and the council represent the rule (as far as Kryptonian society goes) and Jor El is the exception.
And Lara too, got to give her credit, as while it was Jor El's idea, she had to carry Kal El to term, ouch !
Now you've brought it up, and I'm not sure if DC has ever done it, but what an amazing storyline could emerge from If Jor El, Kal El and Lara had all come to Earth. What would the consequences be like ? How different would Kal El be if he'd been raised by Kryptonian parents on EArth, instead of Krypton. (I know they've done elseworlds stories about what if Krypton never exploded). Hmmmmmmm...anyone got Geoff Johns' phone number ?
okay, moving right along.
So while I disagree with your criticism re the explanation for Jor El staying on Krypton and the contradictory depiction of Krypton, I think your criticism re Jor-El's fighting skills, has some merit.
A little explanation might have helped, as I was surprised not just at how he could best Zod (although the desperation would really help -although it wasn't really sheer desperation and strength, which is what I would have expected, it was a pretty skillful beat-down). What really surprised me was how he could take on 4 soldiers and win (with an intial surprise advantage, and temporary blindness being a huge advantage) but his skills were impressive
(maybe a bit too impressive). I suppose it fits with the Robert Downey jr version of Sherlock Holmes being a superb fighter due to both skill and
intellect....anyway it goes against the traditional representation of Jor -El.
You would think that Kryptonian soldiers, created for warfare, would be just about impossible to beat (like Captain America), Faora certainly was more what I'd expect (particularly in how she manhandles the arguably much stronger Superman), but obviously they hadn't been taking the same amount of effort in sorting out their male soldiers...who knows maybe on Krypton the best warriors were women (Faora v Wonder Woman, now that would be a good one !).
Personally, I really liked it, it was a fun surprise, but I'll admit it seemed almost (and I mean almost) seemed out of place (I mean, who didn't want to see Zod get his ass kicked, after he shot that old lady, what a bastard, he had it coming).
While we're talking about explanations.
(on that note, I enjoyed TRON legacy, but one thing that drove me nuts was how CLU was going to invade the real world with an army, but the portal comes out in a basement work-room that would only fit 4 or 5 people tops. That made NO sense. A line or two of dialogue and they could have explained that, because as it was, it left a giant hole in the plot).
Like Darth, I disagree on Superman's displays of compassion, but really in the fight with Zod, did he have time to worry about that ?
I remember in Superman II when Zod, Ursa and Non, turn their super breath on the bystanders and Superman yells "The PEOPLE !" before
flying off. While that worked in 1980, I'm not sure it fits with today's sensibilities. Also the fight with Zod was pretty frantic, and part of it had to be Supes standing up to a bully, at last (so I suspect in some small way he actually enjoyed fighting Zod). Maybe it was just to showcase that if Superman ever did fight in downtown, the damage would be catastropic (in keeping with a more 'realistic' version of Superman).
Yes, there would have been a substantial body count, and huge property damage (although not as great as that casued by the Kryptonians' gravity weapon), but Zod needed stopping, there and then, or the human race was finished - it's not the best argument, but you can argue for a "big picture" approach, needs of the many etc.
Honestly, it's a very personal thing. You didn't like it, but it worked for me. Probably don't need to discuss it much further, just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Okay so moving on to Thor TDW.
Like I said, I really enjoyed it, nearly as much as MOS, which is saying a lot for me, as I'm not really a Thor fan. True, MOS was a much darker film, and the humour was only incidental, but that's a Nolan thing, you don't see many laughs in TDK, and it's one of the best superhero films of all time. Mabye it's just a Marvel - DC thing, with DC being better at darker films, and Marvel being lighter (although Tony Stark's routine got old after a while, he's still the same arrogant prick for 3 movies, until the very very end of Iron man 3...come on).
Sorry, getting distracted. Really enjoyed TDW, won't try to poke holes in it until I see it again (although I can tell you now, the romance plot will be one thing I complain about). For now I'm happy with it. Nice job Marvel.
Back to Sif and Volstag, I suppose sending Sif might make sense, as she seems to be pretty high up in the warrior hierarchy, but Volstag is kind of comic relief (although Ray Stevenson is perfect for the character, and does a great job of not going too far -reminds me of a less violent version of his character in Rome).
Would you really send him though, for such an important mission ? Again, my main question would be, why do it at all ? Maybe it was Odin sending them, before Loki replaced him, or maybe Loki actually did it (but that doesn't seem to fit with Loki's general character) ?
Personally, I'm much more of DC fan than Marvel, although they have produced some very enjoyable films. TDW was a really fun one, but that scene just didn't work for me. It was like the writers trying too hard to knit together storylines that don't really fit together.
Do you think the whole "infinity gem" storyline would work on the big screen. I suppose the Thanos cameo at the end of Avengers was a hint,
but would it pan out on the big screen ?
Anyway, like I said at the beginning, I tend to get into these discussions, but don't think I'm being unfriendly, and I give you a lot of credit for the tone of your comments -whether I agree with them or not. So sorry, if I sound like I'm taking it a bit seriously. I respect your point of view.
Ultimately, we may have to agree to disagree, but that's okay too.