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Old 11-20-2013, 12:30 AM   #345
Senator Pleasury
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Join Date: May 2013
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Default Re: What's So Bad About Superman Returns?

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
You need to watch the movie again. I can't even describe what you missed if you didn't see it in the first place. Just go watch it again and pay attention to every time Lois and Superman are together
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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
Like a I said, watch the movie again. I don't even know how you missed it...lol. Maybe you're young or something...idk. It's there though. The kiss is part of the narrative, but you didn't see it, so you need to watch the movie again. Everyone else saw it.
So... you totally get why it's necessary to re-watch a movie if you want to discuss properly about it.

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
I am very familiar with the Donnerverse and pretty much all of Superman's lore. I've been a dedicated fan for over 30 years. I know my Superman. But rather you realize it or not, you just confirmed why the Donner template was a bad blue print for Singer. Donner KNEW better. He knew not to give Superman some huge emotional problem or drama he couldn't overcome by the end of the movie, so everyone in the audience left with a smile. It didn't matter how ridiculous, but Superman has to solve the problem. Singer didn't even plan on doing this, so again why use that template? Just tell your own damn story with a new format.
Donner did give Superman some huge emotional problem and drama. The only way Superman could overcome them was some deus ex machina kind of last minute twist. Donner did not know better about how to solve a big conundrum, he had created himself. That's why he would conjure up an easy way out. Try and do that today in a movie and you'll get some huge backlash.

Singer gave Superman the same kind of situation - feeling lonely, having an impossible love -but this time thee was no easy way out. I don't get your "Singer didn't even plan on doing this"? Who says so? On what basis?

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
MOS washed SR away because it rebooted the franchise. As for me, MOS got a sequel, but I still have no faith in WB, so I will wait and see. I don't trust them to put out good CBM product (Nolan's Batman aside). I was actually surprised I liked MOS as much as a did. I don't like everything about it, but it's definitely on the tops for Superman movies.
A reboot is not enough to wash things away. His critical reception was pretty poor, the fanbase is divided and they felt the sequel needed more than just Superman to work.

Now, MOS had many good things, but suicidal Pa Kent and Superman throwing a giant spaceship over a populated city are as questionable as Superman having a child or spying on Lois.

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
One viewing was enough. After that I had a solid two years of debating how bad it was right here on these boards...and I'm still at it. I have a lot antipathy for this movie because I waited 20 years for Superman to return and then got this garbage. You know if you go back in this thread I posted a link to an article Singer gave a few years back where he admits he made mistakes with SR. He realizes now what he did wrong.
I myself have gripes with SR: too many core plot point not well explained (when did Superman and Lois conceived Jason, why exactly did Superman not say good-bye), too many STM duplicated dialogue, why the Lois-Clark relationship hasn't changed one bit (even more, they feel even more distant than in Donner moves). But I can tell those and why the good things outshine the bad ones because I have seen the movie enough to tell.


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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
Aside from it being one huge rehash with very little originality,
Well, unless you've seen Superman movies before where Superman has a son, he goes to find Krypton's remains for 6 years, Lois has moved on and Luthor can create his own continent, I'd say you're wrong about the originality in SR.

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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
my main problem with "Superman Returns" is how they introduced Lois' son Jason. I'm not against Superman having a kid, but the way it happened goes all the way back to him and Lois shacking up in "Superman II" (a scene which even Margot Kidder says was wrong in retrospect).
Well, it' not clear when Jason was conceived. It's never explained in the movie that it happened during SII.

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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
Not only is he conceived out of marriage,
I... I am sorry?

How is that... any wrong or reprehensible? I mean, after 1970?

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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
but according to Singer's "vague history", Superman just abandons Lois (and by extension, Jason) without a single word?
Superman didn't abandon Jason as he didn't know he existed. In fact, Lois herself didn't know about Jason, she thinks he's Richard's son.

That said, yes. It is explained in the movie he didn't say good-bye to Lois because if he had done it, he wouldn't have been able to leave. I think that was completely unnecessary. The mere fact of Superman having to leave was enough to have Lois angry at him. The whole inability to say good-bye was just a bad choice.

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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
Some will say, "maybe he didn't know", but how would that be possible for a man who can literally hear everything?
Superman doesn't hear everything unless he's using that super-power.

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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
Throw in the creepy "stalker by the window" scene, and it turns the Man of Steel into the most lazy, irresponsible parent on the planet.
If you knew the definition of stalker, you'd know Superman wasn't one. Even less a creepy one. Stalking implies intimidation and an obsessive behaviour. Superman did it once and not in order to intimidate Lois.

And as soon as he found out he was Jason's parent, he went to Lois's house and talked to him and told Lois he was always going to be around to protect them. When you don't know you're a father it's hard to be an exemplary father.

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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
If a future film has Superman as father to another child, I hope they do it the right way, because he's meant to be a symbol of all the right choices, none of the wrong ones.
Not anymore. Much like in Man of Steel, Superman is fallible and not the 100% perfect role model. That's why he quit his mission for a girl in SII, he disobeys Jor-el's mandates in STM and he leaves earth in SR.

What's outstanding in him is not that he does everything right, but that he tries his as much as he can to achieve that.

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