Originally Posted by Visualiza
Missing the point. Movies, just like any other form of art, are to be judged on both objective and subjective terms. Personal preference isn't the quintessential criteria for whether or not a movie is good or bad. Of course it can't be narrowed down in a factual sense, but one can still exercise their better judgment as well as their own preferences....
.....On the other hand, what has indeed happened is that some critics have compared and contrasted the two, since they...you know...feature the same protagonist to illustrate certain points. We don't live in a vacuum, folks; favorable and unfavorable comparisons between the two are inevitable, as well as being fair game. What's hypocritical is that the defenders cry foul whenever MoS is compared unfavorably to S:TM, but they're just as quick to wax poetically about how superior an adaptation this movie is to its predecessors. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
Generally, I have great respect for Visualiza
, so with that respect
I must say that if anyone has missed the point of this thread, it's you.
Nobody is crying foul here about unfavourable comparisons. In fact the whole point of the thread is to state your personal opinion and make that comparison IYO, unfavourable or favourable, it doesn't matter.
Again I feel weird quoting myself but....
This is not intended to be a thread where people should feel the need defend MOS at all costs, or in the face of reasonable suggestions/opinions. If you preferred SMTM, I want to know why, and respect everyone's personal taste. If MOS was more your style, again, why ? Which is the better film, and as always, why ?
So, the point of this thread was to state one's preference and why.
While I appreciate that sometimes the MOS fanbase can get fired up and
sometimes dogmatic, this isn't meant to be a debate about which is the
better film overall or whether MOS is a good film or not.
It's all about personal preference.
Personal preference isn't the quintessential criteria for whether or not a movie is good or bad.
Actually, personal preference IS the quintessential criterion for whether a movie is good or bad, to YOU. And within the context of this thread,
which is solely about personal preference, it is the only criterion that matters.
Some of the first posters got this, as did BH/HHH
. In fact Feedona TreeFrog
pretty much got it exactly right. I don't agree with Lord
but his expression of opinion contrary to mine is completely valid and what this thread is all about.
My perception of what's happened here is that a thread for expression of opinion seems to have been temporarily hijacked by you taking a swipe at MOS fans. I don't have a problem with you stating contrary opinions, or if a question arises to which logic applies (and this thread ain't one of those) using that logic.
It is one thing to say that MOS fans tend to weigh their own opinion and enjoyment of the film above opinions that are critical of the film. That is a fair comment. It is also fair for you to point out what you perceive as weaknesses in the film -on which we can either agree or agree to disagree.
However, I do have a problem with you slagging off an entire fan community within the context of this thread. If it were called "MOS is the greatest movie ever made" or "MOS flawless masterpiece" then perhaps you might have an appropriate platform, but this thread isn't it.
I'll say one thing, the propensity of this fan community to immediately assert their favorite whatever as being synonymous with quality is reaching new levels of absurdity. The folks who freely talked about their guilty pleasures...those are the ones I miss. I have a lot more respect for someone who can admit that they enjoyed something in spite of its flaws than I do the zealous fanatic who takes a bizarre sense of pride and ownership in the things that they like.....
Personally, I feel that the MoS fanbase by and large falls into this "I like it, therefore it's the best" group, and a huge part of it is based upon their analyses of the movie as well as their knee-jerk reactions to criticism. Stuff like "This is Superman for the 21st century" isn't exactly what I'd call legitimate praise; that sort of commentary is far too vague and trite to be taken seriously. On the other hand, I've found the criticisms of the film to be far more lucid and reasonable than the praise, but even in this case, many of the more defensive fans take certain criticisms so far out of context to the point of being unrecognizable, and then they "rebut" them as such.
That would be a fair point, except that this thread's entire purpose was to
state what your favourite was, within a very limited context, the 2 Superman origin films.
In fact, "This is Superman for the 21st century" is a completely legitimate expression of opinion - I don't really feel the need to further explain that one, other than to say that for a Superman film in 2013 I think it represents 21st century sensibilities, well at least the sensibilities that matter, which are mine. If it's too trite and vague for you, too bad.
I agree that there is an admirable degree of honesty in talking about guilty pleasures.
For example, if I were asked if Pacific Rim was a great movie, for me personally I'd say yes, I loved it. If I were asked if I thought it was a great movie within the context of serious cinema, of course not. It's not the Godfather, or even Star Wars, but boy it's fun.
Do I think that MOS will go down in history as with the same kind of recognition that SMTM got, ( given it's status in western culture, I think we can say that SMTM is considered an "objectively" good film, more on that in a moment). Anyway, do I think MOS is one of the greatest films of all time, honestly no. However, is it probably going to be a long standing favourite of mine -and, to me, the best escapist cinema I've seen in ages. Absolutely yes.
On that note, people have thrown around the words "objective" and "subjective" and not completely correctly. In this context I would say that Subjectively means what you yourself think, objectively means what someone else in your position would think.
There is no objective thinking necessary for this thread, it's completely subjective - which film do you think is better, and why ?
There are a couple of comments you, Visualiza, made that didn't quite stack up to me, although it's possible I misunderstood them. However....
A perfect example is this fallacy about MoS not being like the Donner films
Other than it features, as you correctly pointed out, the same protagonist (although wildly different interpretations of him) and settings, I honestly don't believe MOS has much in common with the Donner films. In fact, what Snyder and co were trying to go for was something completely different, so it is....not like the Donner films - of which there were only 2, or 1 and a half, depending on whose story you believe.
Write this down and take it to the bank, but not one critic has ever said that MoS is a failure for not being like SM '78, not even implicitly; this one of several falsehoods that indignant fans have convinced themselves of
On the other hand, what has indeed happened is that some critics have compared and contrasted the two, since they...you know...feature the same protagonist to illustrate certain points
Honestly, I don't see the distinction. if a critic compares the two films, which I agree makes perfect sense (they're essentially 2 versions of the same story), and finds one to be superior overall, then doesn't that imply that the inferior film is inferior because
it's not like the first film ?
But anyway that's not the point of this reply. Why don't you do what this
thread was set up to do, and state which film you prefer, SMTM or MOS and why ? If you didn't like either of them feel free to share your opinion on that too.
But if you want to attack the preferences of others, then do it elsewhere.