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Old 12-12-2012, 04:55 PM   #220
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

Originally Posted by Lorus View Post
You're initial post decried a lack of diversity for being people with identical characteristics/jobs etc providing no conflict or variation. Something which nobody was suggesting and indeed isn't seen in the not particularly diverse Avengers film consisting of five white men and a white woman. Then you immediately stepped to ethnic diversity as being a solution without regarding the situation in which a non culturally diverse cast can provide suitable variation in terms of storytelling. Surely you can see how I consider that disingenuous when presenting my argument?
I can't understand your POV on my statement. I was repetitively explicit that all diversity serves the same purpose, as opposed to proposing ethnic diversity is a solution that other diversity is not.

I haven't seen the Matrix in a while so I can't comment too much on the specifics of it but does Morpheus being black play into the story or theme in any way? Would the film suffer had a white actor played him? See, if you're basic premise is that the Avengers' story is 'deeper and better' because Samuel L Jackson played Fury rather than a white man , I'm afraid I cannot see the argument. Can you explain why in another way perhaps?
Morpheus and Fury, interestingly enough, are the same archetype, the mysterious man in black, an authority who knows more than he's telling, who does bad things for good reasons, and tells the hero(es) what to do but will not allow himself to be questioned. These masters of mystery are often literally dressed in black as well. In a simple chromatic way, a darker skinned person lends to that mystique.

Going further, the perceived differences between blacks and whites can make a black character seem even more inscrutible. Then going further, with the association of black people with criminality, from news and sketch comedies and the like, which drives home the man in black archetype even further, as they are doing bad things. Here, race enhances the story. And then going further, the differences between he and Captain America, and he and Stark are even more dramatic because of their skin color difference, further adding to the contrast, as much as their wardrobe differences.

You've misinterpreted what I've written. I didn't say that stories about cultural differences or inequality are more ethnically diverse, but that race and gender contribute more heavily to the story. In Mad Men, Don Draper being a white man is a very important to the story and couldn't being changed without altering the story in a significant way. Walter White could well be changed to a black man though, without manipulating the story or themes of Breaking Bad at all.
You said it usually happens in stories about inequality, but *every* story is about inequality of some sort, and different types of inequality can help tell the story about the type of inequality that is being talked about.

You've manipulated my example to the point where it's not been addressed to the degree I would have intended. I'll rephrase. I'm writing an Avengers story, an important parallel subplot is based on redemption and I need to include an Iron Man. I could use Rhodey, but Tony fits better for the story being told. If I were told to use both then now I'd have to find a way to make Rhodey's role fit whatever structure I've planned whether he's the best fit or not. My argument is entirely based around having the option to choose the best character for the job based on whatever story is being told. Race/gender often won't come into that unless, as aforementioned the story is directly considering these topics. To swing back to my initial statement, I want Whedon to be able to choose the character that naturally fits into the puzzle, rather than be forced to build the puzzle around a mandated need for whatever is arbitrarily considered 'acceptable' diversity.
I'm not sure how to decode this one, so the best I can say is: If you're writing an Avengers story picking one character at a time, you're not writing an Avengers story, you're writing a bunch of solo movies and hoping they happen to come together into something awesome.

In a nutshell, they are genetically pre-determined characteristics that are shared identically between millions of people and aren't subject to change. It's entirely cosmetic. In real life, perhaps a person is defined more tangibly by their race/gender but in the context of fictional characters designed to turn together as gears in a larger machine, it's not as frequently relevant because the purpose they serve is twinned to whatever characteristic has suited them to the story. I refer back to Fury in the Avengers because I can make him white, hispanic, gay, a woman, whatever and not alter the character's role in the story. I couldn't change his personality or characterisation without re-writing the script, hence those things are more important.
Ah, but race and gender are more than that because they come with so many perceptions and expectations - so much emotional and social baggage and commentary. By playing with these stereotypes you can say more than you're saying and actually connect with people's real lives.

Originally Posted by I'm Venom View Post
I really don't care to see Luke Cage. Black Panther could be good, but he has no powers for us to be like "wow." Not much thought is put into creating black heroes. They're there more so for the diversity than actually having something to do.
Um... BP has no powers in the same way that Tony Stark has no powers. Sometimes in the exact same way. Of the comics I've read, a lot of thought has been put into BP, and his role on the team. What comics have you read where he felt like a token?

I think LC has plenty to do regardless of his race, from having a kid with Bendis' fave to leading the New Avengers. Not my fave character either, but it's not like in the 70s when he was just a blaxploitation character. Nowadays he's doing more than most heroes.

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Last edited by DrCosmic; 12-12-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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