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Old 03-10-2014, 05:02 PM   #711
Senator Pleasury
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Join Date: May 2013
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Charlie Manson had legions of followers after he was labelled a killer by the authorities and even locked up in prison, and he didn't have to offer them a free 20 million bucks either. It doesn't prove anything other than people are always up for a freebie.
Yeah, you can gather the loons if you have the skills. In Joker's both actions (in B89 and TDK) he was looking to corrupt normal people though.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I know that. That's not a social experiment. That's obvious, as was shown in the scene where Joker was ignored on TV until he mentioned free money. They didn't care he was on TV until he offered them something nice for free. People will always come if they're offered something for free. Common human nature. No experiment involved or needed.
Same with the boats, if you look at it like that. People can become killers if it's in order to save their own lives or their loved ones'. I don't need an experiment to know that.

For example, Joker told Gotham, kill Reese now or I'll kill some of your loved ones. BOOM , everyone didn't give a damn and started shooting and whatnot to kill him. Nobody thought, mh, maybe Reese has a family so I should sacrifice my wife. No, their own interests came first and with a bang (literally).

So yes, in general Gotham people (policemen or not) don't care put other people's lives first when it's about their loved ones (in those boats there were families, not just individuals). And I say "kill others" because Reese might be one man, but the guy shooting like crazy or the one trying to crash his car into the police van certainly didn't care about killing someone else in the process of killing Reese. Everything goes.

So, the point was made, no boat experiment was necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Yes you do. Because to assume everyone will slaughter hundreds of people to save themselves is not a clear cut conclusion like taking free money.
Why not exactly? Are there official numbers to support either statement?

But that's what the movie showed me regarding killing Reese.

Then again, not everyone would risk their lives for a bunch of dollars. Because it's not just "taking free money."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
In the bar scene in TDK when Joker makes his announcement after blowing up Gotham hospital you see everyone watching intently and then they clear out of the bar when he tells them "If you don't want to be in the game get out now".

They didn't have to listen to a word he was saying. But they did. That's the difference between the people in Gotham in B'89 and TDK. One set never seem scared of him or even acted like he was important unless they were getting something out of it. Whereas in TDK you saw Gotham's people panicked and scared of him several times. Which is more normal and believable.

Be realistic. If the guy who has been terrorizing your city with mass murder gets on TV, people will pay close attention, whether they have a choice or not. That's common sense.
Except if, as I said, people killed by the Joker were only models and TV people. We only saw drunks and workers reacting to the Joker's announcement. They haven't been touched or killed by Joker, so I can get why they didn't take it as a personal threat, unlike in TDK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
It is never specified that he is only killing certain types of people just because the first two victims were models. The news says there's another 6 deaths later, and they never specify they're models or anything. You're just making an unfounded assumption there.
No, I'm saying what's in the movie, not assuming anything else as true.

People who wear a lot of make-up and beauty product were Joker's target. That's what the movie shows and that's why Joker chose that way to kill. Joker himself talks about "the avant garde of the new aesthetic" and how he is motivated by people's typical appreciation of beauty ("You know how concerned people are for appearances. 'This is attractive, that is not.' That is all behind me.") That's why he attacks through beauty products, that's why the movie only talks about models and such as victims ("The fashion world was stunned today by the sudden deaths of models..." "Three mysterious deaths at a beauty parlor in Gotham..." "COSMETICS SCARE IN GOTHAM") and Joker even re-makes over Alicia "in line with my new philosophy." That's why those drunks and workers weren't worried. At that time, also, Batman had already warned people which beauty products NOT to consume.

Saying that Joker was trying to poison everyone is an unfounded assumption. It's not in the movie. Joker chose his deadly weapon based on what people he was trying to kill.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
No it's not. Not even close. Nobody was forcing them to go and take this money. They were not backed into a corner. They were just greedy. Hence why Knox points at them and says "Gotham's greed", not "Gotham's desperation". That was Burton's statement on this situation. They were acting out of greed not need.
You're right.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Ok. And when I said it wasn't a social experiment I meant it. It was just a set up to lure Batman and the citizens to him. Best way to gather a crowd is offer something for free.
And best way to make people kill is to put a gun against their heads. Not a mystery exactly.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Why not? It's naive to think anyone will kill other innocent lives to just save their own neck. I was glad TDK showed that.

Normal people actually want to help their fellow man, and they certainly don't want to be responsible for taking lives. Look at the Boston Marathon bombings. People actually ran toward an area that had just been rocked by multiple explosions in order to help the injured. Not just police, regular people did this. There was no reason to assume things are safe when two explosions just occurred. They helped their fellow man knowing full well they were potentially putting themselves in harm's way.
And it's naive to think that everyone would risk everything for money. But we're talking in general here I think.

But, as TDK showed, when their families are threatened, most Gotham people don't hesitate to try and shoot an innocent man. Not even if they're a cop.

And, anyways, Joker's boats experiment only needed one person to push the button. But hey, suddenly everyone in Gotham, even convicts, are too noble. That's naive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
No they're not, and that's the thing these people did have time consider these things since they had half an hour til midnight, and they expected someone else to push the trigger and have that blood on their hands.

That's why nobody would get up and do it, except for that one guy because "No one wants to get their hands dirty", and even then he couldn't do it when push came to shove. It's one thing to say yeah we should pull the trigger and then expect someone else to do the deed, but it's another to actually do it yourself.

What people say and what they do are two entirely different things. It's easy to be callous, cold, and uncaring in a hypothetical. When it comes down to actually pulling the trigger most people wouldn't and in cases of a large crowd gathered together groupthink more often than not becomes the deciding factor.
Nobody would do it except for that guy because the writers suddenly felt the very same Gotham people who didn't hesitate in trying to take one life would suddenly have problems trying to kill convicts.

When the boats scene came it was suddenly a chore, even for convicted murderers, to kill and protect yourself and your families because the scene required so.

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